Looks like Chicago needs their community organizer back.

cbs2chicago.com - Nearly 125 Shot Dead In Chicago Over Summer

By all accounts, Obama's work as a community organizer had a profound impact on Obama himself.

It doesn't appear, sadly, that the communities have enjoyed long-term impact from him.

A little point of reference would be good. In 2006, the population of Chicago was over 2.8 million. The number might have gone up or down slightly, but it's a starting point. The number of troops in Iraq is about 140,000.

You do the math.

Another perspective might be if we weren't spending $12 billion a month in Iraq we would have some money to ... oh nevermind ...

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

As you may (or may not) know--I'm not an Obama fan;

But, you know what? I think your last statement is such a low blow and shows a huge amount of ignorance (or stupidity, or naivity--not really sure).

Inner cities neighborhoods are known to be dangerous--always have been, and probably will always be.
Lots of people crammed into small areas. Usually those people are economically in the "lower class"--there is a direct correlation btwn poverty and violence. I really wish people would just accept the fact that you can argue FACTS without resorting to nonsense.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I agree 100%

Real issues are boring. Real issues rarely divide us, they tend to bring us together. Because at the root of all the gamesmanship we really all have the countries best interests at heart, at least I think we do.

In order for us to show why we are smarter or why our side is right and the other is wrong we must divide. It is sad really, but that is the way it is.

I've said it before, politicians are all on the same side and it's not OURS! Rebubs or Dems. . .it's the same bs. No real change will ever come of it. Real change comes from the grassroots; people who have a true vested interest in their cause.

That being said, this is also a very ignorant thing to say. . .

Another perspective might be if we weren't spending $12 billion a month in Iraq we would have some money to ... oh nevermind ...

I watched the PBS Wide Angle episode on Iraqi refugees. Good stuff. And honestly a lot more pertinent to the American people than the political smoke and mirrors drivel we've been being spoon-fed lately; Palin's daughter is pregnant and Barrack's pastor is an *******, blah, blah, blah!. Here's the link:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/ep...-episode/2827/

I would also suggest watching Morgan Spurlock's Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden.

If you really think that we should just bring that 12 billion a month back to the states and leave a vaccuum in Iraq like we did in Afghanastan, you are living in a fantasy world. Al qaeda is real and they prey on the impoverished and disenfranchised with their extremist drivel. I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth. . . BUT maybe the correct thing would have been to say let's make sure that money is being spent wisely in Iraq. I could agree to that.

Spending money wisely in Iraq, IMO, means spending no money in Iraq.

That's OK, you can call me "very ignorant," too, I can live with it.

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Reading is Fundamental.

So what your saying is that we shouldn't do anything for the Iraqi's that are impoverished, disenfranchised, living as refugees in countries like Syria and Jordan, where they can't even work? We should just ignore their plight and let them fall prey to extremist rhetoric? Wow! I'll say it. . .that's very ignorant.

Sorry - I was trying to go for brevity, which is not my strong suit!

I agree - change in inner city neighborhoods is very hard to pull of, at least on a permament basis.

His theme is based on the notion that he has this ability to bring dramatic change.

It doesn't appear that at least in that particular job role he held in the past that he effected change that created an amazing, sweeping difference in the lives of the neighborhoods in which he was working.

Absolutely - it's a huge, systemic problem, and perhaps to *expect* that he would have mobilized people to have a complete societal revolution is a next-to-impossible expectation.

But he uses his job history as part of the proof that he is Mr. Change.

And yet... it doesn't look like anything really *changed* all that much because of his presence. At least, not in a lasting way.

And no, I'm not under the impression that it was solely his responsiblity to completely overhaul the rougher areas of Chicago, and certainly don't blame him for the way things were or are.

But it would be nice to see where he left his mark - an indelible mark of accomplishment - somewhere, especially if he is going to use that former job role to 'sell himself' to the American people as someone who *changes* things.

ETA: The two big accomplishments of his I've heard cited for his efforts were that he got a job training center moved closer to the neighborhoods where people needed training, and got something done regarding asbestos inspections. So I guess the real question - and I don't have the answer for it - is what happened to the employment rate in the areas he worked in the years following the move of the training center.

Actually, <gasp> I agree with Obama and O'R. on this one.

Iraq has about $79 BILLION in oil revenues, thanks to us.

I think investing in those refugees would be a great use of some of that cash.

truble--whether you agree w/ the war, or agree with WHY we are there, you cannot ignore the fact that we are there! Should we just pull every single person out of there and pull every bit of "our" money out of there--I believe that would create a situation that literally and figuratively would blow up in our faces.

As much as I would like to see our troops deployed elsewhere and doing other things--at this point in the road it would be incredibly stupid to pull out overnight.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

OK, I'm very ignorant. Somehow, you thinking that of me doesn't bother me at all.

I'm thinking of what 12 billion a month could do for the plight of impoverished Americans. As McCain says: Country First.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Gee, they are now calling the Wasillia the Meth Capitol of Alaska.

By using your logic above, Palin was just as good as Obama over the last couple of years....

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Whether we leave next year or 100 years from now, there will be civil unrest between Sunni and Shia. I would be very surprised if the Sunni came out on top. It is also inevitable that Iraq will ally itself with Iran since they are the only two Shia dominated countries. Most of those who fled the country are Sunni and comprise most of the middle class, the doctors, dentists and people with the education and know how. I doubt they'll be able to return any time soon. Their homes have been occupied by others.

Most are try to emmigrate. Sweden has been very generous but recently had to close its borders. Refugees could work in Syria, but, Syria is a country with few resources and there are no jobs. They too have been generous bu setting up schools and providing food and medical care. They too have had to close their borders. Jordan has not been generous. They accepted refugees with sufficient funds to pay there own way and, yes, they had to prove it. They are not allowed to work and will more than likely be kicked out after they run through their funds. I don't see a solution here unless we take the refugees ourselves and we've been less than accomodating in this regard.

We cannot stay forever. We're practically bankrupt. You have to face the fact that they have asked us to leave and insist upon a time line similar to what Obama has proposed. They have awarded their oil contracts and development rights to China. The Kurdish area has pretty much declared itself independent of Iraq and entered into a partnership with Norway. We will not benefit from oil.

We took the lid of Pandora's box and we can't put it back.

Oh my, is it topsy turvy day? And I agree with you on this. But don't tell anyone, I might lose my card as a "Wild Eyed Liberal."

To be honest, I don't have time today to watch the PBS video but I did find this information online about the placement of Iraqi refugees. Note this information is from September 2007.

Iraqi Refugees and Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs)

Additional information about Iraqi resettlement in the US:

Refugees International: The Iraqi Displacement Crisis

64% if the American people, ignorant all, don't support the Iraqi war (invasion). That figure has pretty much remained the same over the last 2 years.

Iraq

I agree that the refugee problem is horrific and we should take responsibility for it IMO but as you can see by the above we are not. Who "created" a situation where the American people were convinced we needed to invade Iraq, who is now not taking responsibility for caring for the victims of that invasion (Iraqi and American IMO) -- Mr. Bush. Who supported the invasion, who apparently is willing to continue the path we are in, who has no plan that I could find to help with the refugee problem -- may I present Senator McCain.

To be honest Senator Obama hasn't said a lot about the situation but he has addressed it:

Hanna Ingber Win: Obama, McCain Skirt Iraqi Refugee Issue

So my ignorant self thinks there is plenty more we could be doing to help the refugee situation in Iraq and our own country with $12 billion a month.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

An interesting article

Why pulling out of Iraq won't save money - Jul. 9, 2008

"End the war, save money that can be used for other purposes. That's effectively how both John McCain and Barack Obama frame the fiscal outcome of drawing down troops in Iraq.
It sounds right, but federal budget experts say that to arrive at that conclusion requires a bit of fairy-tale math.

"They kind of create money out of thin air," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.

Here's what she means: Washington is charging the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to its national credit card. So far, the government has spent between $700 billion and $800 billion since 2001. Simply deciding to spend less money the government doesn't have will not free up real money to pay down the current deficit or help pay for new endeavors.

"We'll be borrowing less, but we'll still be borrowing," MacGuineas said.

And for awhile, the country may even end up borrowing more because of the additional costs of bringing troops and equipment home while continuing to prosecute the war at some level. So depending on the extent of the drawdown and the timing, the deficit may actually go up initially.
But that's not the initial impression that the average voter might get from the way the campaigns present the issue."

....Skipping to the end of the article

"Generally speaking, McCain has said he opposes committing to a timetable for withdrawal. Obama says he thinks that's what Americans and Iraqis want, although he would balance that desire with "all the factors that go into American security." He also has said, "We've got to get more troops in Afghanistan."

All that means is there's no way to gauge yet how much either candidate would reduce war spending over the long-run, and how much so-called "savings" they would realize. But that's not stopping them from banking on the idea to help sell their other proposals to voters."

It's hard to disagree with the fact that we will be spending money for years regardless of when we bring our troops home. This is a poor analogy, but when the sink is overflowing, don't you think you should shut the water off asap? Thinking Senator Obama, who pretty much wants to shut the water off quickly, will have a lower "repair bill" then Senator McCain who is having trouble locating the shut-off valve.

Out of curiousity do you not agree with Mr. Paul's view that we should get out of Iraq?

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

This is an extremely silly comparison.

To anyone who has done volunteer work, do you really expect to see your efforts magnified large? If you have done mission work, do you measure your success by the numbers of your failures, even in regions that you didn't reach, or do you measure it by your individual successes.

Anyone who has done any charitable work, regardless of whether it is organizing or fundraising or legislating, knows that success is measured on an individual basis.

I do a lot of community work. I don't measure my success by whether the crime rate in my city goes down, or whether more kids go to school, or whether more people are free from domestic violence. I judge my success by whether I prevent one more person from violence, by whether I ease one more person's pain. Asking more from me is inane. It's insulting. It's disrepectful.

I don't know how effective Obama's work was. The mere fact that he tried is good for me. It's more than most people do. Yes, he didn't suffer in a POW camp. Given that the last president didn't even fulfill his tour of duty with the National Guard, it's hard for me to understand why the right think that being a POW equates with being right, when ducking service didn't equate with being wrong.

The fact is that Obama tried to help people. Whether it worked or didn't, I just don't know why this is something anyone would mock. I find the whole Republican disdain for his community organizing to be disrepectful and downright insulting to those of us who are engaged in the same.

I agree with this. Something has to be done about the situation. My fear is that if we pull out under Obama's plan that we will be leaving Iraq like we did Afghanastan after the Soviet invasion. In essence leaving a void and a country left in shambles. If Iraq (with it's $79 billion) does align with Iran we are screwed. I don't know how likely that is as there is much animosity between the two. Nonetheless, it leaves Iraq open to be the new staging ground for Al qaeda.

Btw. . .I am not a McCain supporter, nor do I support Obama.

But I stand by my statement, that to simply take our 12 billion a month and go home is very ignorant and dangerous IMHO.

And thank God we are talking about issues that matter!

Yes, I do agree with Paul's idea. But it was not only leaving Iraq he wants to bring people home from all the bases around the world. Saving billions and billions on that alone.
Also drastic cuts to federal government programs would be necessary until the US got back on a solid monetary ground.

I just do not think Obama will bring the troops "home". I just look for him to move them around. Let some come home..but send out more troops to Afghanistan, etc. So, I do not think that you will get any "saving" from that move either.

Yes, I do think we need to leave Iraq.
But... I think that will not happen.

kvmj- I just wanted to point out that Iraqi refugees are not allowed to work under Syrian law. I don't know if that was always the case or only started once they started requiring visas. If they are able to work it is as illegals; day labor and such.

I agree. . .

Yes, and that would include national security.

When you're surrounded by piles of credit card debt, isn't it time to stop charging?

I think McCain doesn't even know the water's running.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Not necessarily. I'm not sure you truly understand what is happening in this situation. Here's a very informative link:

Complete 911 Timeline: The Soviet-Afghan War


For anyone who doesn't have to time to read thru all of it now here's some very pertinent info:

March 13, 1994: Report: Violence, Drugs, and Militant Training Camps Are Rife in Afghanistan

The New York Times reports that tens of thousands of Islamic radicals from around the world have come to train in Afghanistan since the end of the Soviet-Afghan war, in order to bring the militant jihad struggle back to their home countries. There are dozens of training camps all over the country, with around 20 under control of warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar alone. [New York Times, 3/13/1994] Even though bin Laden is living in Sudan at this time and has moved some training camps there, he also keeps some camps and guesthouses open in Pakistan and Afghanistan until he moves back to Afghanistan take direct control of them in 1996. [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 63] A civil war that has raged non-stop since the Soviets left and the growing importance of the opium crop made Afghanistan into “essentially a lawless country. There is no civil law, no government, no economy—only guns and drugs and anger.” Abdul Haq, a politically moderate warlord, says, “For us, Afghanistan is destroyed. It is turning to poison, and not only for us but for all others in the world. If you are a terrorist, you can have shelter here, no matter who you are. Day by day, there is the increase of drugs. Maybe one day [the US] will have to send hundreds of thousands of troops to deal with that. And if they step in, they will be stuck.We have a British grave in Afghanistan. We have a Soviet grave. And then we will have an American grave.” [New York Times, 3/13/1994]
Entity Tags: Abdul Haq, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Osama bin Laden
Category Tags: Soviet-Afghan War, Drugs

January 15, 1998: Former National Security Adviser Has No Regrets Giving ‘Arms and Advice to Future Terrorists’
In an interview, Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s National Security Adviser, admits that it was US policy to support radical Islamists to undermine Russia. He admits that US covert action drew Russia into starting the Afghan war in 1979 (see July 3, 1979). Asked if he has regrets about this, he responds, “Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war.” Then he is asked if he regrets “having given arms and advice to future terrorists,” and he responds, “What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?” The interviewer then says, “Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.” But Brzezinski responds, “Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn’t a global Islam….” [Le Nouvel Observateur (Paris), 1/15/1998] Even after 9/11, Brzezinski will maintain that the covert action program remains justified. [Nation, 10/25/2001]
Entity Tags: Zbigniew Brzezinski
Category Tags: Soviet-Afghan War, Pakistan and the ISI, US Dominance, Counterterrorism Policy/Politics

My point being with all of this is that we, meaning our foreign policy, has been in this f*ckfest for years! If you really want to blame somebody for this mess, blame Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s National Security Adviser. This isn't partisan stuff. . .started under the Carter administration, made worse under Reagan and Bush, continued under Clinton and Bush Jr. Oh yeah, then there is that wonderfully stupid Rep. Charlie Wilson (D)! And now here we are! To imply that if Obama gets into office and pulls out of Iraq that this is all going to go away is laughable! At least when McCain talked about maybe being there for 100yrs (God forbid! That would suck!) it implies that he understands what the situation is. I think Obama knows too, and no matter how much he talks about what people want to hear, he knows that we will still be there too. We created this monster and now we are going to have to deal with it, like it or not! It's ok though. . .it's an election year. Back to partisan politics, like it really means something. Let's talk about Cindy McCain's outfit some more and how Obama makes people feel hopeful with his speeches.

Back at ya.

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Reading is Fundamental.

That's all you got? Wow! Your silence speaks volumes!

Back at me how? School me please! Tell me exactly what it is I'm not understanding. Post up something that refutes what I posted above.

Or don't

Like I said. . .

You made a long post based on a false assumption and I saw no reason to discuss it with you any further since it seemed a rather wasted effort.

Your first line spoke volumes.

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Reading is Fundamental.

What false assumption? And my long post is fact. Please tell me how spending no money at all in Iraq, which is what you posted is you position, is going to solve this mess? I'd really like to know.

You made the assumption that I don't understand what's going on.

Wrong.

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Reading is Fundamental.

hambirg, what YOU don't understand it that truble understands EVERYTHING perfectly and has a perfect opinion about everything. The sooner you get that straight, the better you'll get along here. lol

Melissa

Wow, not what I think, but thanks for the compliment. Good to know you think so highly of my intellect.

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Reading is Fundamental.

So tell me what you understand? I told you my understanding. . .based on history, research, truth.

All you posted so far is that I'm wrong. Sooooo prove it. Post up your knowledge on the subject. The fact that you haven't only supports my original assumption. . .that you don't know, that you don't understand, that you are ignorant on the subject, and that you are basing your cute little one liners on nothing but your emotions about a subject that you know very little. I don't think it takes a brainiac to see that.

So I stand by my original post, that when you said, "Spending money wisely in Iraq, IMO, means spending no money in Iraq. " Was an extremely ignorant thing to say.

I'm not going to engage in this debate with you anymore. You proved my point very obviously.

Yeah, I'm starting to kinda get that.

I just like to point out that people on the left post equally stupid, obnoxious bs that the people on the right, that they love to jump all over, do.

They do not!!

Melissa

hehe

Do you think if we had pursued Osama bin Laden and killed or captured and tried him as I thought we set out do immediately after 9/11 would the danger you see today escalated to the same extent. I have never figured out why the current administration seemed to place so little importance in capturing him. I expect there were and likely are operatives looking for him but Mr. Bush has said "he doesn't matter to me". I just have never understood the dismissal of the importance of capturing the head of the terrorist group that attacked our country.

We've talked about this lots on this board but since you're "new" I thought you would have a different perspective,

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Wow - you're a quick study...I don't even think you were around for the infamous "You're funny" phase...

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

From what I've seen, heard, read, it probably would have made little difference. There are many others under him, scarier than him actually, that will carry on his extremist jihad. There are also other groups besides Al qaeda that believe that jihad needs to be carried out against us. From what I understand, Al qaeda is the most well funded, (thanks in part to Rep. Charlie Wilson (D) who in a very short time tripled money to them.) I have my theories about why they don't really go after him. Mostly they know it won't make a whole lot of difference and I think they don't want to make him a martyr for his cause. They are hoping he dies on his own.