It is a subject that comes up here frequently and I had a thought today.........ok noone act too shocked!

I was just thinking about how we as conservatives are accused of voting on morals, which I do to some extent. One of the moral topics is abortion. The liberals say it's personal choice, conservatives believe it is murder.

Who made abortion political?? Wasn't it made political when it was made legal (a law was set) by the Supreme Court? As far as I understand, it is not their place to make laws. It was made political that day. Conservatives didn't choose to make it political, but when something that you believe is wrong to your very core, is made legal, you want to fight to make it right. We didn't start this fight, but we are expected to roll over and take it because of other "high minded" ppl who think they know better.

I can promise you there are many more ppl who are against abortion than are for, yet it is still legal.

I know our country is in bad shape right now. I get that. But to me, it is far more important to protect the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves than my husbands job. I would be dirt poor the rest of my life, live out of dumpsters, be homeless, if not one more child was legally murdered. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

I know that there would be many "unwanted" children, I understand all the "problems" with unwanted pregnancies I just still don't believe that it justifies murder. I don't know the answer to those problems, but murder is not it in my eyes.

I know I've opened a can of worms, I just hope we can play nice. If you don't agree, I understand. Just wanted to share my thoughts.


melissa...........trying to be very small now........

I *think* that it's always been a bit political. The subject of abortion really comes done a couple of things: 1) when does life begin? 2) Who has the right to force a woman to complete a pregnancy?

In my opinion--if legislature, the Supreme Court or the city council decides that woman do not have the right to terminate a pregnancy, then we will start sliding down a slippery slope. Next we could see laws stating that a woman couldn't take birth control to prevent pregnancy, then oops! Condoms could then be viewed as violating a woman's right to get pregnant (if she wants)--so, let's outlaw condoms.... Do you see how the slope could get really steep and really slippery? I do.
I don't advocate abortion--but I do advocate that every woman have the right to choose. (yes, I know she chose to have sex, but as all of us know--sometimes crap happens, despite your best efforts and intentions). I see that you say you know there would be unwanted children. What would you recommend for those children who did not ask to be born, and certainly didn't ask to be resented, treated badly/abused or abandoned? I would love to hear what your perceive as all the "problems" of an unwanted pregnancy. I would also ask, how do you understand these problems? You know, I thought I knew about abused wives and just KNEW I'd never be one---until I was one. NOW? I truly do understand battered/abused wives.

FYI---it is extremely inflammatory for an abortion to be called murder, because you are in essence calling every woman who has chosen to have an abortion a murderer. I understand that you may feel it's murder. But, when you start throwing that word out there, it automatically puts some people on the defensive. And then the mud starts getting slung.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

And here I thought you were going to give us a commercial break by singing us a song.

F to the R to the E to the E to the C to the R to the E-D-I-T.......

How can you make a promise stating there are more anti-abortion people than not? Although among your acquaintances, this may be true, that is because you, naturally hang around like-minded people. Among my friends and acquaintances, there are many more pro-choice people than anti-choice people---and I really mean MANY more. You made an awfully strong promise that I am sure you cannot prove or back up.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

I absolutely agree that the fight about whether a woman has a right to choose is at stake in this election.

Where I think you are wrong is thinking that the right to chose what something that was just made up by the Supreme Court, and that it hasn't some very real underpinnings in the Constitution.

The right of a woman to chose her destiny really stems from a case called Griswold v. Connecticut, which recognized there were private matters in which the law shouldn't intervene, such as birth control.

I don't think that anyone today would actually argue with the fact that women should be allowed to use the pill. I suspect that a lot of women, in fact, who vehemently oppose abortion also practice birth control methods.

Roe v. Wade wasn't as much of an extention as you think. Once you accept the fact that women can elect to choose methods of birth control because they have the right to chose what happens to their body, the next question is, what happens when they become pregnant. In Roe v. Wade, there was a balance struck. It dealt with when viability became a reality.

The problem that i have with the whole pro-life philosphy is that the only way that it makes sense, constitutionally, is to also deny women the right to exercise birth control. And I just don't believe that many people who are pro-life proponents are actually advocates on bans on birth control.

Well, I don't know mold I fit in, "conservative" or "liberal"....I don' t like those labels, in fact. I believe in having the right to choose what is right for ME. I also don't think abortion would ever be right for ME, but, I also don't think I have the right to tell someone else what is right for THEM. If someone came to me and said they were considering an abortion, I would ask them if they have all the facts and how can I help them with whatever decision they make? I would also offer to help them in any way I could, short of giving them money FOR the abortion. Although, I guess that would depend on who it was??? I just don't think I could feel comfortable with that.

I don't hold against a woman that choice, if she makes the choice to end her pregnancy. I see the Pro-Life side. I am FOR life, just not for forcing my morals on someone else. So, I think for me, it is my own personal decision.

I think the abortion debate has been a "political" one since Biblical times.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Oh man I HATE that commercial jingle.........

We are already on a slippery slope but not the way you think.....It's when you start to devalue life and consider it disposable- and a fetus is alive- that the slide starts. Assisted suicide, embryonic stem cell research, etc..

It's already happening...

"A woman’s ability to manage her own health care is being compromised by politics and ideology. The new regulation complicates rather than clarifies the law. It lets health care providers define abortion, which could threaten access to birth control and broader reproductive health care. This is just one more example of how the Bush administration puts politics in the exam room."
Planned Parenthood - Bush's Prescription for Bad Health Care

"Now Department of Health and Human Services -- under Michael Leavitt, another Bush appointee -- may redefine abortion to include the prescription and administration of any drug or procedure that stops implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus.
Under that proposed rule change, which would not require Congressional approval, use of birth control pills, IUDs and emergency contraception such as the morning after pill would constitute abortion.
And pharmacies, clinics, hospitals and doctors that receive federal dollars -- such as Medicaid or Medicare reimbursements -- would not be allowed to require health care workers to fill prescriptions for birth control. Or require them to offer information about birth control."
Our view: Rights at risk | floridatoday.com | FLORIDA TODAY

I do agree that conservatives vote on morals on a number of issues usually this involves limiting someone’s rights. It’s your opinion that abortion is murder. It is not (that’s my opinion).

Abortion has been around since women have been getting pregnant and will continue whether legal or not. I imagine it's been a politic/moral issue for centuries. Who are the "high minded" people who think they know better? You or me?

I disagree that there are more anti-abortion people than pro-choice. Nobody wants to have an abortion…but it’s woman right to be able to decide what is best for her based on her beliefs, her circumstances (financially and otherwise), how she became pregnant (rape/incest) and a number of other factors. It's not up to you to judge or tell her she must proceed with a pregnancy no matter what.

Most conservatives would not be willing to pay (ie higher taxes) for these unwanted kids (healthcare, education, special needs programs, child care, food, housing, job training, etc). I know this because they already complain about their tax money going to welfare, food stamps, special needs programs, healthcare, etc.

It is not the Supreme Court's job to legislate. It is their job to ascertain whether or not laws comply with the terms of the constitution and settled law. Griswald was indeed a precedent for Roe.

AMEN. I don't want this profound sentence overlooked. Very well said.

"It's when you start to devalue life and consider it disposable"

But killing someone in a war for oil is ok in your opinion? Or is the only life that is valued American life?

I am decidedly pro-choice. But I would have no problem with limited restrictions on abortion. I do have a problem with allowing these restrictions to be put in place now, simply because if we give the anti-choicers an inch they will go for the mile. If I thought that there could be a reasonable compromise and that would end most of the bickering, I could accept that, but that's not going to happen and the fight will go on, no matter what the law says.

Women will continue to get abortions. One way or another. No law is going to change that. There are certain behaviors that are not going to change and people need to realize that. Drinking, gambling, prostitution, abortion, etc. There are no laws that will stop these behaviors. So the smart thing is to find a middle ground and try and regulate them.

That's what we have been working towards with alcohol. Banning it did not work. Driving and drinking does not work. So now we have the laws in place in most areas, to take care of people who drink and drive. Otherwise we leave them to their own devices. The same should be true of all so-called "moral" problems including abortion.

Just so I'm clear and not making assumptions: You believe that assisted suicide (such in a terminally ill person who wants to die w/ dignity) and embryonic stem cell research (that could find the cure for cancer, or other incurable diseases) are wrong and going down a slippery slope?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Absolutely!!!!

You know this discussion has led me to see a side of this argument I haven't before. I understand why some believe a woman should be able to do with her body what she chooses. Not that I didn't understand that before, just in a new light...

Where that argument breaks down with the pro life stance is that upon conception, it is no longer just the woman you are talking about. I get why the word 'murder" could be inflamatory, but to me that is precisely what it is. When you refer to it as less, it devalues the life that has been cut short by a medical procedure.

Melissa

But that's only from your viewpoint. You can only "murder" a living human being. A fetus is not a living human being, IMO.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Terms like like "abortion" and "pregnancy termination" and even "selective reduction" in the event of unwanted multiples are such euphemisms - they actually enable people who chose these *procedures* to acknowledge what they are doing.

Why do people get so uptight about the notion that girls/women who choose abort their baby be required to view a video of such a procedure, first? Because it will be even more traumatic? Shouldn't they have every understanding of what they are doing to the baby...and their body before they're allowed to forge on ahead?

If abortions continue to be legal (which I'm obviously against), I do feel that there needs to be certain minimal requirements in place to assure that the girl/woman truly understands what will occur. It is life, and "terminating" that life means "killing" it.

Calling it what it is, and avoiding the euphemisms above would be a good start to helping people acknowledge that they are ending a life.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

That is YOUR personal belief...not all thinking people believe as you do. Now you are not only trying to dictate people' choices of what to do with their bodies; you now want to dictate their dictionaries and words of choice. What is next, book burning?

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

ummmm....I can't speak for ALL women who have had an abortion, but I did have to watch a video of the procedure, and I did have to speak w/ a counselor.

So, let's get back to what you would do with all the unwanted children? And how you know the difficulties of an unwanted pregnancy?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I accompanied a friend of mine. I decided that, since she was doing it anyway, and we had talked about all of her options. I didn't want her to be all alone. I talked to my priest about it, first. He agreed that it was the right thing for me to do.

She did not have to watch anything, and the "counselor" aspect was a joke. The lady just asked a series of questions off a form, as if my friend was simply giving blood. It was a formality, at best. But this was a few years ago. I hope it is being required now, but I keep hearing that it is being disputed.

Marilyn, you and I have gone back and forth about this exact topic - I told you I that adoption is the most obvious answer - there are thousands of eligible couples/families who would do anything to have a child of their own. The waiting lists are a mile long - we all know that. And there are many couples/families that would welcome children with special needs. My brother and his wife have adopted three such children.

I know where you stand on this, and I really appreciate the way you pose questions and keep in the "open forum" spirit whenever this topic comes up. You and I agree on almost nothing, but you are truly open minded. It's harder and harder to see open mindedness on this board on some topics with some posters, but your posts on this topic are.


ETA: I don't feel I need to know the "difficulties" of an unwanted pregnancy to be qualified to hold my opinion on the issue. The way I see it, "difficulties" shouldn't even be an issue. There are a lot of things in life that are difficult. That doesn't mean qualify as a reason to end a life, IMHO.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

I am very impressed and thankful that your brother and his family have opened their hearts to children who need love.

Adoption is one answer. I agree with that. I agree that all women/girls should be counseled and made aware of all of their options, and the possible outcomes of their options. I don't know the answer to this issue. But, I don't think that I have the right to impose my morals on anyone.

I respect your opinion.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Why should a woman be required to view a video? Does this mean that everyone who has a medical procedure would be required to view a video before hand so they will know what will be done to their body?

If you think the video idea is something that will change minds shouldn't it be shown in sex ed classes... before the pregnancy not after the fact? Kind of like the drunk driving videos they show in drivers ed.

A video would actually show what the girl/woman is allowing to be done to the life inside her. I think the "mother" needs to see , and deserves to see, what will transpire. Not exactly the same as requiring the viewing your garden variety tonsillectomy, here...

Are you saying that you don't feel that a girl/woman about to undergo an abortion procedure should be required to see a video? Do you really consider it "after the fact" if the baby is still in the mother's womb?

You're probably onto something, though, about sex ed - if they're not already showing such a clip in those classes, they should be doing that, too. Prevention is definitely key.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Speaking of video, this is one interesting clip on youtube...

YouTube - McCain and Obama on Abortion

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Correct. Why should they be forced to? Because of your beliefs?

I have no idea what you mean by this.

It is "after the fact" of getting pregnant, but it is not "after the fact" of ending a life.



Regarding watching the video, of course it should be done - and I am glad to hear that it has been part of the "routine."

Why should it NOT be - because YOU say so?

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

"before the pregnancy not after the fact" of getting pregnant

Well I guess we just don't agree. From what I can tell it being part of the "routine" depends and where you go.

Sure! That's as good as reason as yours

Ugh! This is always such a tough topic. My dearest friend has had 7 abortions. I love her to death but I could never do that. She was young and irresponsible. . .and fertile too! She's 33 now, has one child and is having her tubes tied. I think that's a wise choice for her.

I'm all about truth and transparency. Knowledge is power kinda thing. I think showing an abortion in sex ed is a good idea. I think some on the pro-life side do try to candy coat it. Of course, I also think we should put birth control in the drinking water.

Just one other small thing I want to point out. . .not all unwanted pregnancies turn into unwanted children. I cried for days when I found out I was pregnant with my third child (I had a 4yr old, I was still nursing my 9mo old and my husband had just lost his job.) She is definitely NOT unwanted.

Did you mean pro-choicers?

I believe that "candy-coating" is exactly what the pro-choicers/anti-lifers do when they choose lighter terminology (selective reduction, terminate pregnancy) and get upset about those wishing to end a life by having an abortion be required to view a video.

JMHO...of course

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell