I just watched the Wright interview with Obama. Interesting. I don't get how someone can be in a church for 20 years and not know what was being preached. He claims the Wrights veiws were new to him, that he'd never heard him preach ideas like we heard on the sound bites. He even made a comment about how often those bites were played. O'Reillly said something about the tapes of the sermons and probably some pamphlets on what was taught/believed at the church were right there to take/purchase. Obama's answer?? "I don't know what to tell you."

His answers about the ppl he has chosen to associate with were........well.....lame. It only served to make me trust him less.

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Melissa

Have you noticed in all these interviews, when O'Reilly gets to him, Obama will 'touch' O'Reilly's knee? That has happened so many times -- I think I'd be telling him to quit touching me!! Geesh!!

That's a pretty patronizing action. I didn't actually notice. He's going to be the cause of his own demise politically.

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Melissa

I'm going out on a limb here......Obama is lying about his church. Either that or he and his wife are incredibly stupid. I saw the website before they changed it. It was blatantly black liberation which sort of matches Michelles paper that was mentioned on here a few days ago and the excerpts from Wrights sermons. You don't have to be a genius to put two and two together.

YouTube - SHOCKING Obama words: what he really thinks of white folks


Oprah Winfrey supports him. Here is a sound bite of her:

YouTube - Oprah Winfrey's Racist Comments


Clear as day to me.

Can you fill me in........I have dial up and youtube is useless to me.

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Melissa

I would be surprised if you (the general You)* would be able to understand what the words "Black Liberation" means. Unless you belong to the church or are a person of color, you won't be able to "get" it. You can try, but you won't. I don't believe that Sen. Obama wants to overtake America nor does he want to kill all the "whiteys" as your (general Your again)* posts imply. I don't believe that he nor his wife are racists any more than I believe that Gov. Palin is a right wing rifle carrying, right to life nutcase. I believe that John McCain and his running mate are trying to do the best for this country and I think that Obama and Sen. Biden are doing the same thing. How they get to that goal is what the race is about. You don't have to bring the other side down to make your party up, get it?

Does it make you seem rational to paint Obama as a racist when you clearly know he isn't. In fact, it makes you seem like one.

I admire all the candidates for doing their best work, to get where they are. We are making history...either way this Fall,. Two minorities who 100 years ago couldn't even vote are now in line to be running the most powerful country in the world.



*If this doesn't pertain to you, then don't take it....the people who I am talking about know who they are.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

The thing is usnamom, I believe that churches are about God and worshiping Him, not about race or agenda. That's where I get lost. I've read about black liberation theology, I just think that is the wrong direction for a church. The church is about God's people being taught to serve each other and Him and to grow in knowledge and grace.

just my two cents

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Melissa

For black people, some black people, historically the church was where the movement to end segregation began and was organized. The pastors of the churches were the push and the organizers. The movement for equal treatment still continues. The racial bias still exists. The churches are still the organizers of the movement for equality and the push to never be satisfied with the status quo until everyone of color is equal to those who are not. So when I read that the church is preaching I don't get in arms because I understand what they are saying. I understand that some pastors are saying "Don't settle for what we have now...we still have a long way to go" because we do.

Perhaps if black people had been able to worship God along with everyone else, the preaching would be more palatable (the way the pastors preach) to the public. It is very different when you attend a predominantly AA church as the pastors have a very different role in the community than in your typical AOG church, for instance.

From the beginning, while slaves, the black people would still praise the Lord while wondering when he would deliver them from masters. They were spiritual people and after being freed waited for the wrath of God to deliver punishment as promised. There is lots on the internet, if anyone is interested in learning more about what role the church plays in the AA communities. I don't expect that anyone is however. It is easier to compare your experiences with theirs and find that if it doesn't match, then theirs is wrong.

I don't agree with what the Pastor said but I can understand it. It is not really any different than what some preacher, I can't remember who, that said after Katrina, that it was God's way of smiting the people in NO for their wickedness or the preacher who said that the latest earthquake in CA was God's way of saying how displeased he was with Gay marraige. I don't remember who said those things, someone else might be able to remember who did. I think they both were preachers of 'born again" churches, conservative christians. Do I expect everyone who claims to be a conservative christian to stop being a conservative christian because of what those nutcases said? No, nor do I expect those in his parishes (or whatever it is called) to leave because of what they preached. It is his opinion. I go to church for God and myself. I go for the community of my church family. I understand why those people said what they said. To further their conservative viewpoint. Do I agree? No. But I understand.

Again, it doesn't do Obama any good in my eyes for me to put McCain down. I won't vote for him or Palin because I don't believe what they stand for....especially my views on what are womans rights. But I don't hate the Republican candidates. That would be stupid in my book. Potentially, they could be the next leaders of the country. Do I want that? No, but it is a slight possiblity. A very slight possiblity.

Sorry if this is rambling. It is late and this subject has been picked apart. It is a tiresome subject. And I know that no matter what is said some people will still have one liners about how Obama is a racist and a liar when clearly that is a case of pot calling kettle black. (pun not intended)

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Melissa, because you think it is the wrong direction for a church doesn't mean that it is wrong for everyone. Clearly, those who attend it believe that it suits a purpose in their lives. during the 60s, the churches gave direction to people who were disenfranchised and disorganized and organized them to march to change things. I am guessing that that might have seemed wrong at that time as well. The church was probably not thought of as to be in a place of social change.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

usnamom~

I really don't think anybody here implied that.

However, I do understand what you are saying about the church's importance in the AA community in fighting injustices, both historically and in the present. I understand about the differences in style of the AA churches compared to non-AA churches.

The thing I have a problem with is the ideology of Black Liberation Theology. Cone, the founder, wrote some pretty inflamatory things. I found this, which pretty much is how I feel about it:

Cone wrote "Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants.

Theologically, Cone's argument is as silly as the "Aryan Christianity" popular in Nazi Germany, which claimed that Jesus was not a Jew at all but an Aryan Galilean, and that the Aryan race was the "chosen people". Cone, Hopkins and Wright do not propose, of course, to put non-blacks in concentration camps or to conquer the world, but racially-based theology nonetheless is a greased chute to the nether regions.

Biblical theology teaches that even the most terrible events to befall Israel, such as the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BCE, embody the workings of divine justice, even if humankind cannot see God's purpose. James Cone sees the matter very differently. Either God must do what we want him to do, or we must reject him, Cone maintains:

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."[1]

In the black liberation theology taught by Wright, Cone and Hopkins, Jesus Christ is not for all men, but only for the oppressed:

"In the New Testament, Jesus is not for all, but for the oppressed, the poor and unwanted of society, and against oppressors ... Either God is for black people in their fight for liberation and against the white oppressors, or he is not [Cone].

It cannot be in Obama's best interests to appeal to the authority of Cone, whose unapologetic racism must be repugnant to the great majority of Americans, including the majority of black Americans, who for the most part belong to Christian churches that preach mainstream Christian doctrine. Christianity teaches unconditional love for a God whose love for humankind is absolute; it does not teach the repudiation of a God who does not destroy our enemies on the spot.

Whether Obama takes seriously the doctrines that Wright preaches is another matter. It is possible that Obama does not believe a word of what Wright, Cone and Hopkins teach. Perhaps he merely used the Trinity United Church of Christ as a political stepping-stone. African-American political life is centered around churches, and his election to the Illinois State Senate with the support of Chicago's black political machine required church membership. Trinity United happens to be Chicago's largest and most politically active black church.

Just because we may understand how and where this ideology developed, doesn't justify it anymore than understanding how and where the ideology of Christian Identity (the theological ideology of the Aryan Nation) developed does.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Just as an example of what I'm trying to say, re-read your post as if you were speaking about the Aryan Nation (minus the 1960's part). It still applies.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

[quote=hambirg;3043775]usnamom~

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."[1]

In the black liberation theology taught by Wright, Cone and Hopkins, Jesus Christ is not for all men, but only for the oppressed:

"In the New Testament, Jesus is not for all, but for the oppressed, the poor and unwanted of society, and against oppressors ... Either God is for black people in their fight for liberation and against the white oppressors, or he is not [Cone].

{QUOTE]

Pretty scary stuff.

I agree! It's preaching hate any way you try to spin it. Hate in the name of justice is still hate. Martin Luther King Jr. did more for civil rights then anybody I can think of and he didn't preach hate to do it.

Now maybe Obama doesn't buy into this ideology and only attended a church that is based on it, for 20years mind you, for political clout.

BUT. . .

It's equivalent to McCain being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ–Christian, a Christian Identity based church, and let's say they honored David Duke with a Lifetime Achievement Award, and then McCain saying he doesn't believe in the church's ideology and that he never heard any controversial things said by Pastor Jonathan Williams, even though he attended that church for 20 years and considers him a mentor and friend (but then later tries to distance himself from him).

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Part 3
YouTube - Barack Obama v. Bill O'Reilly - Part 3 of 5 - Sept 9 2008

I want to be careful how I say this because I in NO way want it to be misconstrued to say that I don't think slavery is wrong... because I do. I think it is terribly wrong. I'd have fought for the North.... just to get that out there.

From a Biblical perspective, there are a number of things directed to slaves about their condition as slaves. Slavery was pretty common at the time the Bible was written, and it wasn't black slavery - it was neighboring countries that had overthrown one another, therefore resulting in the 'loser' being enslaved to the 'winner'. It wasn't a matter of sneaking off to a different continent to kidnap people and force them into service.

Still, being considered the 'property' of another human being and not having much in the way of earthy rights is key to what slavery *is*, so regardless of why someone fell into slavery, it is what it is once you are a slave.

The Bible is about the concept that God exists, that he created the world, and that humans need to acknowledge this and follow the precepts that the Creator laid out for them. It's the explanation of the parent/child relationship in which humans are the children and the parent *gets it*... so the children are to respect that and embrace it and know that by living in harmony with the wisdom and understanding of the parent's desires for them that they can live in peace, knowing they're doing the 'right thing'.

The epistles in the New Testament are letters from the apostles, who were inspired by God himself to impart wisdom and understanding to a number of churches in what we now consider "The Middle East". Many who had come to accept Christianity as truth were slaves, and through the apostles, God gave a decent amount of instructions to slaves about their situations *as* slaves.

In a nutshell, that message was, "Do the right thing. The right thing is always the right thing, whether you are a Jew or Greek, slave or free. Live in harmony. Love your neighbor. Get along with your boss, whether you are a free worker or a slave. If you're a slave and get the opportunity to go free, seize it. If you don't get that opportunity, live a life above reproach so that your master will see God through your actions. The world is not your permanent home and life is actually pretty short, so live a right life, love each other, and know that in God's eyes it doesn't matter what your social status is. You're all equal to him."

Of course, that is a paraphrase...!

To me, the liberation theology is in direct opposition to the doctrine I read in the Bible. In the Bible, I see a "Live in peace, go along with your master if you're a slave so that God will be glorified and you will be treated well and be above reproach." It's because your eyes are on the prize (heaven) and not on becoming *humanly* free.

And I'm more than happy that ultimately in America, the slaves were freed. Like I said... I'd have fought for the north. Obviously, the Bible doesn't indicate that slavery is *good* - just that if you *are* one, you should endure it with character and grace and nobility.

So now what we have in America is a system where slavery is abolished, but the ancestors of those who were slaves (which doesn't include Obama since the 'black' side of his chromosomes doesn't have any origins in American slavery) who join up with places that preach liberation theology are actually living *contrary* to what the Bible teaches. Rather than having at their core the simple desire to worship God, to figure out his will for them and to live peacably with their neighbors, whether slave or free, Jew or Greek... well, with the liberation theology, it's all about getting even with the race that used to be bad to *your* race. It's not about picking up, moving on, and living lives that glorify God in such a way that nobody could possibly find anything *bad* to say about them because they are of such high character.... it's about fighting for rights and fighting for acceptance and fighting for equal positions of power.

And I believe this is actually contrary to Biblical teaching, which is (paraphrased again): Always do the right thing.
Be honest, be kind, be hardworking and people should come to respect you for that. And if they don't? It's not a problem, because God is who you are serving, life is short, and if your eye is on the prize, God will take care of you.... and you can feel confident that God is a lover of justice, and he will also take care of those who oppress you in his own good time. So live in peace in your heart, confident that God is in charge and he'll work it out."

With the liberation theology movement, I *don't* see that simple, quiet peace. I see a lot of anger and frustration and 'the whites have to pay' talk.

And to me, as a Christian, that mindset flies in the face of what I think we're supposed to feel when we are with other believers... whether Jew, Greek, slave, or free.... red, yellow, black, white... African-American, Asian-American, German-American, or otherwise.

I think that churches should be a place of comfort, peace, and encouragement for those who have been through the roughest of times.... not a place to mobilize to try to rectify earthly injustices by battling against real and perceived enemies. I think that's God's job.

wowitsdark-

Regarding your above post, Cone would say that is just your Anglocentric view of it. He would say that's a white interpretaion to justify slavery and oppression. I think he's full of hooey, but that is part of his ideology. He believes that blacks need to have an interpretation that is soley their's, which I don't have a problem with. According to his ideology the main focus from the bible should be the message of fighting oppression and injustice, again no real problem with him thinking that. The problem comes with the idea that the only way to work for justice is through hate. I don't think it's a far stretch to say that most people would find his interprtation flawed.

Race based theology is DANGEROUS!!!! Let's not kid ourselves, some of the world's most horrific human travesties have been carried out under the guise of race based theology. It just can't be justified to me.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Part 4 (Final segment)

YouTube - Barack Obama v. Bill O'Reilly - Part 4 of 4 - Sept 10 2008

Well, it still sounds like USA against Russia (missile shield in poland)

This is so eloquent it should be published!! Bravo!!!!

I agree.....Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just dont see how anyone sets in a church that spewed such hatred....If my pastor said anything even close to who (I will call him Rev, very loosely mind you)..... I would have packed up my stuff and been out of there...>HOW can you listen to such hate for 20 years and not believe it????????? Thats what I dont get....and why would he use that church for a political stage???? That would be the LAST church I would want to be associated with...Then at first he really didint want to denounce him...but I guess his advisers said You have too....If that had been a white church and John McCain would have listened to such rage and hate for 20 years he would be done, he may well just have handed the Presidency to Obama on a silver platter.....its a double standard......and I agree Church is no place for such hatred and viciousness....Sherri

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"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Thanks, ya'll. I should've used fewer words!

In Christianity, the key precept is, "It's not all about me." Liberation theology is so contrary to that. Liberation theology says, "It's all about us, baby, and we're gonna make sure the world KNOWS it!"

FWIW, my understanding about Barak Obama's initial connections with that church were through his 'community organizer' activities. Part of getting to know the people in the neighborhoods in which he worked was connecting to and through the churches there. He hadn't been particularly religious prior to that time, and it was his personal experiences with those ministers that drew him to Christianity.

If in fact this is true, his relationship with Wright was probably built on an appreciation for the mobilization he was able to accomplish. It probably didn't *start* with his preaching. If Obama hadn't had much in the way of religious exchange, I can see why he would latch on to Wright long-term. If in fact Wright was a popular figure among the constituents Obama was trying to draw in, it just makes sense that Obama would align himself with Wright on projects *outside* the church... and that *that* part of their relationship probably overshadowed the time he spent watching the "Pulpit Pounding Wright" a few Sundays a month.

From what I read about the tactics Obama used... they were pretty pushy, by design. His methodology involved getting the constituents so angry - by pushing them verbally - that they were spurred to action. It sounds like Wright probably did that, too... and for this reason, Obama may have viewed those sermons as a positive thing if in fact they served as a catalyst to constituents to go change their lives.

I still believe that churches do much more good when they pursue a message of love and of behaving with civility and nobility... rather than a message of fighting for rights and insistence on respect from persecutors, perceived and otherwise. I think the first will get the results the second seeks... but a lot more quickly.

Don't kid yourself, it's always been USA against Russia since the end of WWII. That's how we got into Afganhastan and this whole terrorist mess.

Just a small thing about something Obama said in the beginning. He offers up hydro-electric power as an alternative source of power he wants to invest in, along with wind and solar. He opposes drilling in ANWAR because of environmentl issues. Well, hydro-electric power as an environmentally friendly source of power is quite debatable. It's quite opposed by environmentalist, at least here in Washington. It impacts the ecosystem. . . fish and wild life and watersheds. It would appear to be a clean source of renewable power, but there is much debate that it may, in fact, produce as much green house gasses as fossil fuels. I don't know all the science behind it, so I don't really have an opinion, but I know that it is an issue being debated. It sounds good though. Just like nuclear power sounds bad, but is in fact a good viable alternative, at least scientifically.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm