Wildwood

You said:

How can you call yourself a centrist without recognizing the lies that are coming from the neocons as well? Well I guess you can call yourself whatever you choose, but the rest of us will have to make our own judgments on whether you are a centrist or a typical conservative who misuses language. If you are a centrist then so am I because I keep seeing all the lies and blatant rumors started by the cons.

I asked you to give me some examples, but all you could come up with is:

You first.

I guess you proved my point! That's why, as a centrist, after doing a lot of research, I'll be voting for McCain.

You have NO idea what my views on the issues are! But I can tell you this. . .

I will NOT be voting for anybody that consistently lies about what he has said, has been associated with many questionable characters; religious extremist, terrorist, and those convicted of fraud; has worked for a program that is directly funded by an agency that has actively been involved with voter fraud, and has had his hand in the cookie jar when it comes to funding his wife's place of employment and his campaign donors.

As opposed to somebody that the only bad thing somebody can dig up on him is that his wife became addicted to pain killers. Everybody, including people from his opponents party, have nothing bad to say about him, but that he is a good guy and they respect him. He has pissed people from his own party off by crosssing political lines. He has authored bills calling for truth and transparency in government, especially referring to lobbyist and special intersts groups. He is considered so middle of the roed by his own party that he had to pick up a conservative VP to get the far right of his party to jump on board.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

McCain has a foul temper and mouth to match.
McCain: A Question of Temperament

McCain was involved in the Keating Five.
Keating Five - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Is John McCain a Crook? - Chris Suellentrop - Slate Magazine

He spent his 70th. birthday on Raffaello Follieri's yacht. Follieri was convicted this week of 14 counts of wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy.
Anne Hathaway's ex-boyfriend Raffaello Follieri pleads guilty to scam - Telegraph

There are reports of him spending it on some Russian guy's boat. I'm waitng for FactCheck to look at this one.

McCain - Google Search

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Here you go, article with a picture:
John McCain and Hathaello Celebrated His 70th Birthday in Style -- Daily Intel -- New York News Blog -- New York Magazine

Ok. So what is the connection between McCain and Raffaello Follieri?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

That;s something that he needs to answer.

It's my understanding that this Follieri was a con man. Even his girlfriend didn't know he was a fraud. I think that McCain spending his birthday on his yacht only implies that he was a possible potential victim, not that he was somehow benefitting from the Follieri's fraud scheme.


The ex-boyfriend of actress Anne Hathaway has pleaded guilty to multiple charges relating to a sophisticated scam in which he allegedly posed as a Vatican official and cheated wealthy investors - including a friend of Bill Clinton's - out of millions of dollars. . .

Prosecutors have accused the Italian of posing as the Vatican's representative to the US and promising investors big discounts on property belonging to the Roman Catholic church.

But instead of spending investors' money on church property, he funnelled it overseas to personal bank accounts and used it to fund "a lavish lifestyle" with his celebrity girlfriend involving private jets and an opulent Manhattan penthouse, prosecutors said. Hathaway has not been accused of any wrongdoing.

Anne Hathaway's ex-boyfriend Raffaello Follieri pleads guilty to scam - Telegraph

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I think that McCain is attracted to celebrity.

The Washington Post has a long article on Cindy McCain's addiction.

"It's not just about her addiction, it's what she did to cover up her addiction and the lives of other people that she ruined, or put at jeopardy at least," Gosinski said in an interview this week."

A Tangled Story of Addiction - washingtonpost.com

Like so many people who have the wealth and the connections--she surrounded herself with "yes" men. To me, her addiciton and the story that revolves around it really isn't that uncommon. It could have just have easily been Laura Bush, or Michelle Obama instead of Cindy McCain. And I'm pretty sure that their respective husbands would have behaved the same way. Oh, andit pisses me off to no end that the MD who lost his license because he behaved improperly and unethically is whining about. He knew what he was doing--He's just as much, if not more at fault, than Cindy McCain. He knew it wrong--but did it anyway. If he'd stood up and said something sooner then none of this would have happened.

__________________
"You know I'm rare
You stop and stare
You think I care
I don't
You talk real loud
But you ain't saying nothing cool....."
Pink "Cuz I Can"

I couldn't agree with you more! Drug addiction makes people do a lot of horrible illegal stuff. But like I said. . .let's get back to the topic of this thread. . .give me something awful about McCain. It can't be done . . .

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Obama served on a board with William Ayers. In the mind of the GOP, this maked Obama some kind of radical. Since MCCain partied with Follieri, he must be a con man. It's only logical.

You're reading GOP minds now?

And apparently it's not just the GOP. This is what Taylor Marsh has to say about Obama's relationship with Ayres:

Taylor Marsh is perplexed:

This is the vein in the Democratic party I will never understand, cannot accept on any level. What is it about some people who just don't get the problems with our Democratic nominee being friendly, even taking a contribution (however small), as well as having a meeting as recently as 1995 with an unrepentant domestic terrorist like William Ayers? It reveals a lack of seriousness about the issue of terrorism and the dangerously immature judgment of anyone who is going to associate with a man, at the very least, that Republicans will use to beat us over the head with, having the bonus of hitting a spot the public loves to drink up, which is that our party is not serious about the dangers we face in this world.

It's the same impulse among those Democrats who think Castro is cool and Chavez is a hero. And in Obama's case, if the American voter ever gets the full story, the party could be facing a defeat in a year where all the stars were aligned in their favor.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I think that I am every bit as qualified to read GOP minds as they are qualified to read the Democrat's minds. It's guilt by association.

Taylor has a point. However, I don't think that anyone can, or should, question every acquaintance they make in the course of a political career nor have to parse every single word before before speaking. It would be the only way for a candidate to avoid being bashed over the head by the GOP smear machine.

I would agree with you if it was just one acquaintance, but Obama seems to have a pattern of questionable aquaintances, associates, friends and mentors.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I am not one who thinks that Rev. Wright is a problem. He made occassional statements which scare white people. I have never heard Obama repeat any of those sentiments nor do I think that he harbors any of those sentiments. In my eyes, Wright is not at all radical. Ayers has become a very ordinary man.

I think most people start off honest and Rezko is no exception. As far as everyone knew, Rezko was clean. I took this from Wikipedia.

In October 2006, Rezko was indicted along with Republican fundraiser and businessman Stuart Levine on charges of wire fraud, bribery, money laundering, and attempted extortion as a result of a federal investigation known as "Operation Board Games".[11][12] Rezko and Levine were charged with attempting to extort millions of dollars from businesses seeking to do business with the Illinois Teachers Retirement System Board and the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Board from 2002 to 2004. Levine pleaded guilty and agreed to testify against Rezko and others. While the charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison, Levine expects to receive about a 5-1/2 year sentence in return for his testimony.[13] The case was prosecuted by Patrick Fitzgerald.
Tony Rezko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Obama was not part of any of this.

Those are the only three I know of that have been used to paint Obama guilty by association.

Almost all of these allegations have been the result of email whispering campaigns.

It's not just the comments Wright has made. It's his belief in the Black Liberation theology and the ideology behind it. Cone is the creator of that ideology and what he has to say is pretty scary. I don't know what Obama believes, but it's like going to Catholic Mass for 20yrs and then saying I don't believe in Catholic ideology. That's kind of hard to swallow.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

As far as Rezko. . .I found this:

Obama's dealings with Rezko buy a parcel of questions :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Mark Brown

A question of judgment
You'd get the impression that the normally glib Obama was dissembling.

It would appear to me that Rezko was trying to do Obama a favor by buying the property, the extent of the favor dependent on whether or how Rezko developed his parcel.

Obama said it was always his understanding that Rezko, a real estate developer, intended to build on the lot. It would be more of a favor if he didn't. Rezko definitely did Obama a favor by selling him the 10-foot strip of land, making his own parcel less attractive for development, although still legally buildable.

Rezko is somebody who collects politicians, doing them favors in hopes of a future return on his investment. His main foot in the door is political fund-raising, but he also looks for a more personal approach, such as steering real estate business to the wife of Gov. Blagojevich.

The only thing that separates Rezko from other insiders who play this game is that he seems to operate under a longer time frame, not necessarily seeking an immediate payback.

Rezko's MO is such that any smart, honest politician should have kept him at arm's length long before last month's indictment, wherein may lie Blagojevich's excuse.

But what of Obama, the political wunderkind from whom so much is expected because so much talent and promise has been given? What's his excuse?

I'm one of those who nominated Obama for his place in American history before he even got to Washington.

People ask me what he has accomplished to deserve all this attention, and what I tell them is that it's not what he's done as much as what he could do. His potential is vast and undeniable.

But now we must question his judgment -- no small matter in a man who would be president.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

As far as the lot that Obama bought, Rezko made money on the sale. Obama paid fair market price for the lot. It may be that Rezko was trying to do Obama a favor, but there's nothing underhanded in this transaction.

As far as Wright and the accusations of "black liberation theology", I am not aware that the movement has any life left in. It had its purpose and its time.

Do you really think that Obama, who was raised by whites, could possibly adopt those ideas as his own?

I have stated before that I am not shocked by the idea that God damned America. I don't think that he blessed us when he looked down and saw lynchings and Jim Crow. I don't think that he blessed us when we handed out smallpox laden blankets to Native Americans, I hope we have been forgiven.

I see no problem in Obama having been exposed to ideas that differ from mainstream thinking nor different cultures.

God can't possibly look at the US and legalized abortion in a good light either!!!!

That's exactly right!

Would he rather see children into poverty and die? Would he rather zsee women die? Why do spontaneous abortions occur in 25% to 30% of all prenancies? Why do fetuses die in utero?

Fetuses aren't human beings.

Yes, they are.

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"GO HOKIES!"

There are others too. What about Soros from MoveOn? Ayers and the Anneberg foundation? ACORN?

Here is an interesting link. Albeit it's a blog, and whether it is true or not, I don't know. But it raises some interesting questions. . .ones I liked to get some answers for:

Obama, Ayers, Annenberg, and ACORN: a family affair? td blog

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Here's another good one. This voter fraud stuff is really starting to bother me.

I've spent the past two months immersed in data from the 2008 Democratic caucuses. After studying the procedures and results from all fourteen caucus states, interviewing dozens of witnesses, and reviewing hundreds of personal stories, my conclusion is that the Obama campaign willfully and intentionally defrauded the American public by systematically undermining the caucus process.


CaucusAnalysis: INTRODUCTION

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

No they are not. They cannot form thoughts, learn, or make noise. They have sentience of a cabbage.

I'm not going to get into the whole abortion issue, but that statement struck me as odd.

If they aren't human beings, then what are they? They are certainly not some other species.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

What makes you believe that?

They have brain waves, they learn to suck their thumbs, and they make all kinds of noises. . .heartbeat, hiccups, etc.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Soros has contributed money to MoveOn, but, he's not part of it. There is absolutely nothing radical about the man. He's liberal and he's rich. He supports liberals.

He didn't just contribute money to it. . .he's the founder!

ETA: I take that back. I mis-read. He is very influential and involoved with that group however.

By Autumn 2003 at the latest, MoveOn had been gobbled up by George Soros, and his inner sanctum of billionaires, like Cleveland insurance magnate Peter Lewis, and Phoenix University founder and CEO John Sperling, both of whom had colluded with Soros throughout the 1990s to promote drug legalization, via the Drug Policy Foundation. At the initial meeting in Autumn 2003, between Soros and the co-founders of MoveOn, San Francisco IT execs Joan Blades and Wes Boyd, Soros, his son Jonathan Soros, Peter Lewis, and Peter Bing kicked in over $6 million. By various news accounts, based on FEC and IRS filings, by 2006, MoveOn had received more than $30 million from Soros and Lewis.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Here's his Wikepdia site. . .lots of info about him:

George Soros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

[quote=hambirg;3046576]Here's his Wikepdia site. . .lots of info about him:

George Soros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE

Did you read it? He's done a lot to fight to Communism. He's made money betting on currencies. Looks like he made a mistake in France just like Martha Stewart.

In what way is he radical?

[quote=kvmj;3046581]
Whether or not he is considered radical is relative. I am pointing out that he has his big influential money very much in the mix of things. I want to know why? I'm sure it has alot to do with how he has made his money. He is also involved with ACORN, which has been convicted of voter fraud. This bothers me. I found this, which is VERY interesting. It just seems to be a whole lot more to the story.


Now, Democratic Party sources report, that pool of cash is being targeted towards buying up superdelegate endorsements for Barack Obama. Former Senator and Presidential candidate John Edwards signed up for the Obama campaign one day after his antipoverty group received big financial backing from a string of other Soros-bankrolled groups, including Center for American Progress Action Committee and ACORN. Both groups are on the short list of ``approved'' organizations, funded by Soros' Democracy Alliance, an organization launched by Soros in 2004, and made up of 70 billionaires, who agreed in 2004 to pool their funds, to take over the Democratic Party.

Lyndon LaRouche has emphasized that the Anglo-Dutch financial oligarchy, which created and owns British agent George Soros, has no intention of actually allowing Barack Obama to be elected President. His sole mission is to stop Hillary Clinton from getting the nomination. There is good reason to believe that George Soros is totally aware of, and in on, this plan. Soros has been a major financial backer to John McCain, according to a variety of published reports. When McCain and Sen. Russ Feingold were pushing their McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill through the Senate, Soros front groups gave a reported $18 million to the effort to mobilize support. And more recently, Soros' Open Society Institute was a major donor to McCain's Reform Institute.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

What I'm getting at is that I've read that part of the real reason we went into Iraq is that Saddam Hussein wanted to start using the Euro as currency for oil (I guess Iran is the only country that currently doesn't use the Dollar). Which would explain why the europeans were't interested in backing the war in Iraq (except for England, that doesn't use the Euro). If that happened it would send our economy into a tail spin.

Now, we have a group of European billionares, one being Soros, who made his billions in trading foreign currency, involoved in American politics. And not just politics, but involved with groups that have and are being accused and convicted of voter fraud. Why? What do they have to gain? You can bet that this all has to do with $$$$. How or why, I'm not sure. I admittedly don't know or understand enough about currency markets to get it. But you can bet it's not just because he's a wealthy liberal supporting liberal politics.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

[quote=hambirg;3046586]LaRouche is a pretty crazy man. Whatever he says isn't based in truth or facts.

Ok. I don't know much about him. But still, why did Soros give money to McCain?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

That we went into Iraq because Saddam was about to switch to the Euro is something that I have heard. It was from a Lt. Colonel who worked in the Pentagon and she stated that after she resigned on CSpan. She used to post at Soldiers For The Truth Foundation :: SFTT.ORG, Paul Hackett's site under the nam "deep throat." Her postings were somewhat enlightening. They had nicknamed Rummy Duke Nukem, Wolfowitz was "The Sunshine Warrior", and Feith was the "Prince of Darkness." She likened the Pentagon under Rummy to Golding's "Lord of the Flies."

I don't know if there's any truth to it. I think that it might be one of many reasons that we invaded. PNAC had a goal of remaining the sole superpower and transforming the Middle East into democratic states subservient to the USA. Ron Susskind reports that a Pentagon official stated that we didn't go into Iraq for oil, but bandwidth. Bush referred to the form of government he saw for Iraq as benevolent hegemony. The impetus, I think, came from PNAC.

To the best of my knowledge, Soros is a naturalized American. He was born in Hungary and educated in England. He made his fortune here.

There are a lot of wealthy businessmen who pour money into 527s. You may recall Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth". That group was funded mostly by only 3 wealthy Texas businessmen, Bob Perry, builder, Harold Simmons, banker and T. Boone Pickens, oil. I believe that it is Perry who has a new group going headed by Ari Fleischer but I cannot remember the name.

I'm not worried about foreign influences in the elections. I am worried about who's interests our governments are looking after.

Spontaneous abortions are usually caused by a biological problem. If forming a sentence is the definition of a human then what about handicapped people or people that can't speak or hear? They might meet your criteria for not being human!

Is this not from a blog? You have pooh poohed blogs on here in the past.....but we are to accept this one just because you do??

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

The criteria is sentience.

muhahahahha...you really don't read things before you post!

You look like an idiot right now, you know that right??? Man, I've read some funny crap today--but you just took top prize of dumba$$ of the day.

__________________
"You know I'm rare
You stop and stare
You think I care
I don't
You talk real loud
But you ain't saying nothing cool....."
Pink "Cuz I Can"

I pooh poohed, self proclaimed biased blogs. . .but we all know you don't get that.


Not what I would really call a biased blog, the Dr. is a voluntary field organizer who investigated the Texas Caucus fraud. . .but if you don't like that one then here are some more:



Slate:
Iowa's undemocratic caucuses are no way to choose a presidential candidate. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine

The Globe Gazzette:
GlobeGazette.com

This is the one where Dan Savage was convicted.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

This was the quote. She does imply that they can't talk with the "make noise thing". . .so the confusion I can kinda see.

How you determine they have a the sentience of a cabbage I don't quite get though. What makes you think they can't suffer?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

sentience : feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought

sentence : a word, clause, or phrase or a group of clauses or phrases forming a syntactic unit which expresses an assertion, a question, a command, a wish, an exclamation, or the performance of an action, that in writing usually begins with a capital letter and concludes with appropriate end punctuation, and that in speaking is distinguished by characteristic patterns of stress, pitch, and pauses

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We can't stop here this is bat country.....

A blog is a blog is a blog.....
And you can roll your eyes all you want....you are still a hypocrite....but not at all a surprise to me, because you can dish it out but not admit that you have a double standard.....

Honest you are not….

Spin spin spin.... but if you would like me to get a copy of the post where you would not accept something posted because it was from a BLOG I will be happy to post it for you. And I am sure that you are the only person who can determine what is a "biased" blog because you are the only one who knows what is and is not biased. Right.... And I don’t need to resort to “rolling eyes” because I am not the hypocrite here…..

[quote=hambirg;3046714]I pooh poohed, self proclaimed biased blogs. . .but we all know you don't get that.


Not what I would really call a biased blog, the Dr. is a voluntary field organizer who investigated the Texas Caucus fraud. . .but if you don't like that one then here are some more:

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

Well, I must admit to being a bit bewildered.

Originally, I read this:

I just don't understand this statement. How does someone say that the "only bad thing that somebody can dig up on him is that his wife became addicted to pain killers"? For heaven's sake, McCain's positions have been criticized for months here. What is "bad" to you? What more do you want?

I don't agree with his positions. I don't trust his positions. They change with the political tides. That's "bad" for me.

Also, as a mutually agreeable starting point before we engage in what seems like a battle of moral and not political positions, I'd like you to explain what McCain has done that is so great. He's been around for a long, long, extremely long time. I just don't see much that he can show for it. As another person has posted elsewhere:

Matthew Yglesias (February 13, 2008) - Doing Stuff (Politics)

What do you think that he has done so right in the world that we should just automatically bow down to his supremacy?

I ask this seriously. What has he done in all these years? I'm bewildered and befuddled. Until this election, his reputation on the Republican side has been sort of like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. On the Democratic side, it was a reputation as a vainglorious peacock.

All of a sudden, he is the phoenix rising for the Republicans. And there is this demand of "what is wrong with him."

I'd be interested in what you see as something he has done well.

On the things that he has done wrong, they have been posted here before, despite the fact that there is a contention that the only thing "bad" posted about McCain is his wife's drug addiction. I'll admit here that I'm a little puzzled by this, because you seem to want to talk about things that are morally wrong, because you only refer to Cindy McCain's drug use here, and not the other things that people disagree with McCain on.

But, fine, if you want to talk about "good" and "bad," and focus on moral issues, if that is where you want to go, and it seems like a stupid place to go, we first have McCain's affairs. His many affairs.

Then there is, as you have mentioned, the whole Cindy McCain drug addiction. It is probably is worth pointing out, as a person who posted about Cindy McCain's drug addiction, that the primary objection was that McCain didn't know about his wife's addiction (which isn't consistent with the family values refrain of the Republican party), wasn't even invited to her family's intervention when dealing with her intervention (which is inconcevable to me), and was complicit in the fact that his wife received no real punishment for her felony fraud, theft and consumption of drugs.

Then, if you want to talk whether there is something "bad" about McCain which has been mentioned here, I do remember the fact that he called his wife a "trollop" and a "c*nt." And his tasteless joke about Chelsey Clinton.

If you want more specifics as to why he is disliked, I'll tell you more specifically why I dislike him.

I don't think that he has any integrity. He preaches that he is a maverick, but he's essentially Bush's mouthpiece. I'd be interested in hearing how he is different in any way than Bush. At least as he is running this election, it is hard to see that he is any different.

I'd like you to describe a single piece of legislation that he has initiated that the Republican party currently supports.

He also has a vicious temper. He isn't particularly smart as far as I can tell. I don't know what he stands for until I read in the papers what the conservatives stand for. And then, I'll find his position.

In that, I think he's dishonest. I don't believe that his current positions reflect his actual positions, because they have changed so dramatically. (Can you give me a big hug, GWB?) His positions today are only as deep as they need to be to get elected.

And, while he may have served his country well during Vietnam, he isn't standing upright now, so I'd say he is dishonorable because he doesn't stand for his positions.

And I find your statement, that "the only bad thing somebody can dig up on him is that his wife became addicted to pain killers" is so divorced from the issues driving this campaign that I don't take it as an honest statement. In other words, I don't think you have an open mind. And pretending that you do is disingenuous and wrong.

Peace out.

Danny.

Just because you say so...are we supposed to believe it???.....are you a scientist??? Do you have some sort of expertise in this field????? No didnt figure so....Its your OPINION.....which doesnt make it a fact.....Sherri

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"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Prove me wrong.

I don't know that a cabbage doesn't suffer when shredded for coleslaw.

I know. Sentience cannot be proven or disproven. You can't prove that a fetus doesn't suffer either. So what's your point in bringing up sentience at all?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

What does any of this have to do with Matt Damon?

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Fetuses are in fact human beings, at least the ones we are talking about in regards to abortion.

Fetus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A fetus (or foetus or fœtus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth. The plural is fetuses, or sometimes feti. The fetal stage of prenatal development starts when the major structures have formed, and lasts until birth.[1]

In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age (the 9th week after fertilization).[2] [3]


Unless she is talking about some other species' fetuses. . .the ones carried by humans are,in fact, homo sapien fetuses.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

We've already been through this.

If anybody is interested they can read all about it here, and using their own reasonable prudence, can decide for themselves:

http://www.mycoupons.com/boards/elec...-debunked.html

Why don't you comment on the other two sources then? You asked for them and I provided them.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

QUOTE:Well, I must admit to being a bit bewildered.

Originally, I read this:

I just don't understand this statement. How does someone say that the "only bad thing that somebody can dig up on him is that his wife became addicted to pain killers"? For heaven's sake, McCain's positions have been criticized for months here. What is "bad" to you? What more do you want?

I was asking for someone to clarify what those "bad" things are. What are the positions that have been criticized. I have only been posting here for a short time, and that's about all I've seen. Somebody give me something else, or a quick paraphrase what they see as "bad".

I don't agree with his positions. I don't trust his positions. They change with the political tides. That's "bad" for me.

Like what you just posted. Good. You don't like that he has changed his position to fit political needs..

Also, as a mutually agreeable starting point before we engage in what seems like a battle of moral and not political positions, I'd like you to explain what McCain has done that is so great. He's been around for a long, long, extremely long time. I just don't see much that he can show for it. As another person has posted elsewhere:

Matthew Yglesias (February 13, 2008) - Doing Stuff (Politics)

You can go to his Wikipedia page and read what he has done:
http://www.mycoupons.com/boards/newr...eply&p=3046775

You can check out his voting record here:
Project Vote Smart - Senator John Sidney McCain III - Voting Record or here
John McCain | Congress votes database | washingtonpost.com

What do you think that he has done so right in the world that we should just automatically bow down to his supremacy?

I ask this seriously. What has he done in all these years? I'm bewildered and befuddled. Until this election, his reputation on the Republican side has been sort of like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. On the Democratic side, it was a reputation as a vainglorious peacock.

I think he has done quite a lot in. and you are right in saying that he has not been popular in his own party. That's one of the reasons I like him. Here's an example of something he did:

Owing to his time as a POW, McCain has been recognized for his sensitivity to the detention and interrogation of detainees in the War on Terror. In October 2005, McCain introduced the McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill for 2005, and the Senate voted 90–9 to support the amendment.[168] It prohibits inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, by confining military interrogations to the techniques in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Interrogation. . . .This stance, among others, led to McCain being named by Time magazine in 2006 as one of America's 10 Best Senators.

All of a sudden, he is the phoenix rising for the Republicans. And there is this demand of "what is wrong with him."

I'd be interested in what you see as something he has done well.

See above

On the things that he has done wrong, they have been posted here before, despite the fact that there is a contention that the only thing "bad" posted about McCain is his wife's drug addiction. I'll admit here that I'm a little puzzled by this, because you seem to want to talk about things that are morally wrong, because you only refer to Cindy McCain's drug use here, and not the other things that people disagree with McCain on.

To be honest, I haven't seen much posted on what he has done wrong. . .besides non-issues, like his wife's drug addiction. That's why I brought it up.

But, fine, if you want to talk about "good" and "bad," and focus on moral issues, if that is where you want to go, and it seems like a stupid place to go, we first have McCain's affairs. His many affairs.

Then there is, as you have mentioned, the whole Cindy McCain drug addiction. It is probably is worth pointing out, as a person who posted about Cindy McCain's drug addiction, that the primary objection was that McCain didn't know about his wife's addiction (which isn't consistent with the family values refrain of the Republican party), wasn't even invited to her family's intervention when dealing with her intervention (which is inconcevable to me), and was complicit in the fact that his wife received no real punishment for her felony fraud, theft and consumption of drugs.

Then, if you want to talk whether there is something "bad" about McCain which has been mentioned here, I do remember the fact that he called his wife a "trollop" and a "c*nt." And his tasteless joke about Chelsey Clinton.

Those are not huge issues to me. Does somebody have anything linking him to things like voter fraud? Corruption?

If you want more specifics as to why he is disliked, I'll tell you more specifically why I dislike him.

I don't think that he has any integrity. He preaches that he is a maverick, but he's essentially Bush's mouthpiece. I'd be interested in hearing how he is different in any way than Bush. At least as he is running this election, it is hard to see that he is any different.

Again, we just talked about how much he has crossed his party. Bush has tried to veto some of his legislation. To imply that Bush and McCain see eye to eye on things is absurd and easily refuted by looking at his past record.

I'd like you to describe a single piece of legislation that he has initiated that the Republican party currently supports.

Huh? If he is "not different in any way than Bush". Why would the Republican party not support his bills? You are arguing your own point.

He also has a vicious temper. He isn't particularly smart as far as I can tell. I don't know what he stands for until I read in the papers what the conservatives stand for. And then, I'll find his position.

I don't care about his temper. . .Johnson was world renowned for his temper. It's not really relevant to the job. As far as not knowing what he stands for, look at his voting record, what bills he has introduced, and who he has worked with in the Senate.

In that, I think he's dishonest. I don't believe that his current positions reflect his actual positions, because they have changed so dramatically. (Can you give me a big hug, GWB?) His positions today are only as deep as they need to be to get elected.

Just look at his record. The same can be said for Obama. They are both politicking now, trying to win the election.

And, while he may have served his country well during Vietnam, he isn't standing upright now, so I'd say he is dishonorable because he doesn't stand for his positions.

And I find your statement, that "the only bad thing somebody can dig up on him is that his wife became addicted to pain killers" is so divorced from the issues driving this campaign that I don't take it as an honest statement. In other words, I don't think you have an open mind. And pretending that you do is disingenuous and wrong.

I'm just calling it like I see it. If you think I'm closed minded. . .read my posts. I am always open to the truth. . .just haven't seen much of it.

Peace out.

Danny.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Thread closed due to the number of responses..........

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Nicole