Hambirg's last post


Here's an interesting article I found:

Obama Facing Attacks From All Sides Over Abortion Record - August 18, 2008 - The New York Sun

The legislation apparently was introduced by a nurse that witnessed a botched abortion where the baby was still alive and then left to die.

There was a case here in Washington where a similar thing happened. The baby was still alive and the doctor smothered it. He was investigated and I believe lost his liscence (maybe prosecuted. . .I really don't remember.)

I think whether you are Pro Choice or Pro Life, we can all probably agree that if the baby is still alive then there is an obligation to try and save it. I have a problem with Obama not voting to support that.
end of quote

There was a young woman on Fox, I think, the other night who was an abortion survivor. Her mother had a late term saline abortion and she survived and was adopted and now speaks out against abortion, as you could imagine. anyway...


She was talking about that particular subject and debating with an Obama supporter who was, shall I say, less than kind. I will try to find a link to the interview. She was SO gracious and lovely and the Obama man was quite a cad.

__________________
Melissa

I haven't posted much in here, but just thought I would add just a bit. My sister's called me many times after miscarrying, usually by 8 or 9 weeks, crying and so sad. She's doing that because she's lost her "baby", I don't know if this same thing happens when a woman is pro choice, I don't know if it would make them sad, because after all, it's not a baby, right? Maybe someone who's experienced a miscarriage and is prochoice can clarify? I hope this does not come off as callous or hurtful to anyone, I'm just hoping for better understanding.
I posted back in may that my little boy came 9 weeks early, he was born at 31 weeks. I am amazed that it is still legal to abort at that gestation(sp?) So many 30+ weekers survive at (I think it was) 90% rates. And amazingly the babies born as early as 23 weeks survive. There was a 26 weeker next to my son in the NICU who was just a fighter, and I can't imagine that it makes a difference on whether the mom wants the baby or not, I've seen what they look like and how hard they fight and it doesn't matter if it's in the womb or not. Also to the poster who was asking what prolifers have done to prevent abortions. I would in a heartbeat put up the $10,000 for the adoption legal fees as well as paying for the medical care for anyone considering abortion vs. adoption. However, that's not going to make a difference to someone going in for an abortion. There are THOUSANDS if not more people just waiting for the chance to do that, and it obviously hasn't made a difference. One questions though, why does Planned Parenthood not give information about adoption out? At least present it as an alternative?

This was my post towards the end of that last thread, I'd love for someone to answere some of my questions...
Also I found this interesting article.

Fifty babies a year are alive after abortion - Times Online
Here is an exerpt.

The issue will be highlighted by Gianna Jessen, 28, who survived an attempt to abort her. She is to speak at a parliamentary meeting on December 6 organised by the Alive and Kicking campaign, which is lobbying for a reduction of the abortion limit to 18 weeks.

Jessen, a musician from Nashville, Tennessee, was left with cerebral palsy but is to run in the London marathon next April to raise funds for fellow sufferers.

“If abortion is about women’s rights, then what were my rights?” she asked.

“If people are going to talk about abortion, then it’s important for them to know that these are babies that can be born alive and survive.”

I can only speak for myself---when you have a miscarriage, the loss and devastation you feel is because you had the expectation of a child. You know that it's not really a "baby", but there is the expectation of it becoming a baby. When you find out/realize you're pregnant and it's not wanted--there is no expectation of a baby. (oh and yes, I've had an abortion and then 3 years later miscarried when my Dr. failed to diagnosis a raging kidney infection which caused me to lose a baby)

I hate, hate, hate the argument that there are thousands of people just begging to adopt--then why are there so many children in the US waiting to be adopted? Oh, that's right, those thousands only want to an infant--tough luck for all those kids who were born to crack addicts, were bounced around until they were 4-5 y/o and Momma finally died in the gutter or Social services finally stepped in and took the child away. What about those kids? Why is it ok for US Citizens to go abroad to adopt toddlers? Why don't these people so desperate to adopt, so desperate to have a child open their hearts to the older kids in the system?
I can't answer as to what Planned Parenthood does--but when I had an abortion, I was asked if I had considered all my options. I was advised that adoption was an option and if I wanted to they could assist me--maybe that's the exception and not the rule. But seriously--if you go to a doctor and ask him to remove a tattoo you go when you were 18, is it the Dr's job to talk you out of it? NOPE. It is the Dr's job to explain what the procedure entails, possible complications, possible long term effects.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Well, I looked for the FOX interview link, but for some reason I didn't find that but if you Google "Gianna Jessen" you can read her story and there were some YouTube links. I can't use YouTube so they didn't do me any good.

__________________
Melissa

My post was the last one on the closed thread. I felt I needed to re-post it because there is so much talk about Christians not helping pregnant girls, which is not the case.



Quote:
(Originally Posted by nancymh
Ya know, here's the thing I've always wondered about all these pro-life folks...how many adopted children do they have? I mean, if you're standing outside a woman's clinic assuming that every woman who goes in there is having an abortion, instead of berating them for doing what they think is right for themselves, why not offer to pay for the woman's medical care and then adopt the child yourself? Or, OK, how about just "adopting" a woman who's pregnant and providing financial support to her for the next 18 years if she doesn't have an abortion? I would think that the offer of long term support would cause a lot of overwhelmed women to re-think their choice. I also can't think of a much more Christian act from people who claim to be so concerned with WWJD.

So, I ask all of you pro-life folks on this board...how many abortions have you prevented by putting your money where your mouth is?

What's that you say?????


That's what I thought. )



There are plenty of homes that girls can go to when they're pregnant that take care of them while they're pregnant and help them decide whether to keep their baby or whether adoption is the answer. Here's one not far from me and it's been around for many years. If you'll 'google', you'll find them all over the United States and they are supported mainly by Christians thru their donations. So before some of you blast people for not taking children/pregnant girls into their homes, many give in order for these girls to have a good place to go and get the help they need and get their lives back on track.


LIBERTY GODPARENT FOUNDATION
Liberty Godparent Home
ADDRESS:
Liberty Godparent Home
P. O. Box 4199
Lynchburg, VA 24502

TELEPHONES:
Office 8:00 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. (804) 845-3466
Help Line 24 Hours (800) 542-4453
A Help Line Counselor is available 4:30 p.m. - 8:00 a.m.

Executive Director, Ryan Rush
E Mail - lifekeeper@godparent.org
Fax: (804) 845-3486

HOURS WHEN PREGNANT CLIENTS AND THEIR FAMILILES MAY CONTACT: 800 number is staffed 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

BRIIEF PURPOSE STATEMENT: The Liberty Godparent Home is a Christian, residential maternity home providing housing, education, medical care, and counseling for single, pregnant young women who either parent their child or place their child for adoption.

WHO IS ELIGIBLE FOR SERVICES: Our program is for young women ages 12 through 2 1. A client MUST be an intake by the 20th week of pregnancy.

FEES: There are no fees for education, counseling, room and board, and classes. Arrangements must be made for the medical portion of the program through the Admissions Coordinator at LGH.

WHO FUNDS THE PROGRAM: Liberty Godparent Home is a ministry of the Liberty Godparent Foundation and is completely funded by churches, businesses, and individual friends of the ministry.

SERVICES PROVIDED: Please see "Purpose Statement" above. We also network with over 1,200 referrals all over the United States and Canada. If we cannot help a caller with our program, we will refer her to another pro-life facility in her area for assistance.
__________________
"Many people lose their tempers merely from seeing you keep yours..."

I remember the Doctor in WA state but as I remember it and I may be thinking of a different case, the baby was born not breathing and went without O2 for so long that it was thought it certainly had brain damage, when it began to stop/start breathe again (but not continual breathing,) the doctor put his hand over the baby's nose to stop it from breathing for final and as he put it, to stop the suffering of the baby. I don't remember it being an abortion gone wrong at all but a full term delivery and as such the parents sued and I think the doctor gave up his license or was going to give it up. He was a doctor who has highly thought of in the little town he practiced in and from what I remember reading, the entire thing destroyed him and his practice.

I've seen this abortion argument posted so often here and there's never a resolution. The same positions are stated over and over again but each person always holds to their own beliefs. It really is an exercise in futility.

I understand that some people believe that a woman should have the right to choose whether to give birth or terminate her pregnancy before the fetus becomes a baby. I understand that some people believe that life begins at conception and abortion is murder and murder is wrong. What I don't understand are the ones who say that abortion is murder but that it's fine under certain circumstances, like rape or incest. It seems to me like that is the most arrogant position of all. They believe that abortion is murder but think it's OK as long as they get to choose the victim. I think that makes them much worse than those they condemn who never thought abortion was murder.

You are probably right. I recant what I said. I honestly couldn't remember. But I still stand by what I said about botched abortions.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Gianna is an awesome woman. I have heard her talk on tv many times. She's an inspiration.

It seems to me that there should never be a need for a 3rd trimester abortion. These babies are viable human beings. If you have carried the pregnancy that far why not deliver it and put it up for adioption instead of killing it? It might be a preemie but I'm sure someone would be glad to adopt it as preemies are doing so well these days.
I believe I have asked the prochoicers many times about the miscarriage question. It can't be a baby when you want it but "tissue" if you don't.

I know Marilynk hates me, which is ok with me! lol , but that makes no sense. The abortion was for something that is "not really a baby..but an expectation of it becoming a baby" but when she had a miscarriage she lost a baby. Am I missing something here? One was an "expectation" and the other one was "a baby"?

Thanks Marilyn,
I knew you'd come thru for me and explain it so I could see the other side of the coin. At this time in my life I can't adopt an older child while I have 4 young ones at home. My brother & sister in law adopted siblings 8 & 9, because they were unable to conceive, they didn't find out until 3 years later that the two were both horribly molested for about 6 years. My SIL found them having sex with each other this last summer and they can not be left alone together, or ever with children their own age or younger, even in just the same room. This is why I can't adopt an older child at this point in my life. I'm just giving personal experience, however with an older child you never really know their background, until it's possibly too late.
As for Planned Parenthood, that's what I've been told is that they never give out information on adoption when someone goes in to discuss options. I don't know if this is true, just what I've heard.

It was still such a sad situation, though. No one won in that case. The doctor lost his livelihood, the parents had to face the loss of their baby and the community was devestated by the notoriety.

We could be talking about different doctors but the one I am thinking about, I believe lived on the Westside - maybe on an island? I am from the Eastside so anything to do with WA I am interested in.

Thanks for being stand up, shows class. Too many people just keep on stating their falsehoods over and over without ever admitting they could be wrong.

I can explain it to you. For the lack of a better analogy, I see the fetus as a seed, a seed that if allowed to develop will become a baby, a human being. I think that it should be the mother's choice as to whether the 'seed' is allowed to grow and if she has an abortion, she terminated her pregnancy before a baby was created.

However, if someone else terminated the potential mother's pregnancy when they hurt or killed her and caused her seed not to become the baby she intended for it to eventually become, they are guilty of a crime. If it were an intentional crime, I call that murder because the mother intended for the seed to grow until it become a person. If a woman had a miscarriage, I would think of the seed as a baby because she intended for the pregnancy to continue until she created a baby. If she had an abortion, I would think of it as a fetus who wasn't allowed to become a baby. It's all about the mother's choice to decide what happens to the fetus she created and is carrying inside of her. As long as the fetus is still a seed and hasn't yet become a baby, I think it's her call as to whether she wants to see the pregnancy to fruition.

HTH.

So let me see if I understand this logic. So the "seed" is a baby if you want it to grow into one but it's not if you don't want it to grow into one? It's all a matter of intent? That begs the question then at what point prochoicers see it as a baby regardless of intent. You stated "as long as the fetus is still a seed and hasn't yet become a baby" it's the mothers call. At what point it is not a seed anymore? Who makes that decision?

The law makes that decision and therein lies another rub. With the pro-choicers believing that life begins when a baby can survive outside the womb (with medical help) or when a fetus has clearly discernable features (different criteria, depending on the person) and the pro-lifers believing that life begins at conception, there is naturally, great debate on exactly when a fetus becomes a baby. In the case of deliberate harm to the mother that cost her the fetus, I'm willing to assume that the fetus would have become a baby and would consider it a baby since that was what the mother intended.

Not a problem; I'll always admit if I'm wrong.

I think the Dr. was from somewhere on the penninsula. . .Pt.Angeles or something. The thing that bothered me about the situation is, I understand the Dr, thought he was doing the right thing, but it's not really his desision to make. They should have tried to recessitate (sp?) the baby, and then if the baby wasn't responding they could have stopped. But to put his hand over the babies nostrils is just wrong IMHO.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

So it's the intention of the mother that determines whether the life has any value?

__________________
Melissa

Some people you can't explain anything to--and it doesn't matter how many times or different ways you explain. Kind of like talking to a 2 y/o that keeps saying "Why?".

I don't have any desire to change anyone's opinion of the rightness or wrongness of abortion. What I do hope to do is provide a personal account of how sometimes life throws you for a loop, and you do the best you can with what you got at the time. I would like for people to understand that their preconceived ideas of women who choose abortion MIGHT be wrong. I'm not asking for anyone to agree or change their mind--but to understand that their behaviour towards women who feel that having the right to choose is the correct option will most likely have long standing effects. We don't all have to agree, but we can all respect one another and try to find at least a fragile bit of peace.
I understand that so many see abortion as black or white--but to me there are so many different shades of gray.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I understand what you are saying. But here's my problem with it. This is just my own personal experience. My dearest friend in college had an abortion. She waited much to long IMHO. I think it was around the 5 month mark. When she had her abortion (this is how she described it to me). They injected something (saline I'm assuming) into her, then sent her home. Later she had to go back and they induced labor and she delivered it stillborn. My question is, why not just induce labor? Why the injection to "kill" the baby, if, in fact, it is NOT a baby? I'm not saying this is all abortions. And I don't know if this 5months is considered a late term abortion, just that it was legal in the state of WA in 1985.

There are soooo many grey areas. It's just a really complicated and sad issue.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I see what you're saying--but again, it's all about when "life" begins. If a woman is wanting a child--that child's life begins even before it is conceived. That woman builds and plans a life for her child/children long before she actually is impregnated. So, in essence the converse could be true of a woman who finds out that she inadvertently conceived. She has no plans for another life, she doesn't have hopes and dreams for a child's life at that point in time.

With that, I'm done--unless someone has a specific question of me.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

What about the fact that at six week gestation the "seed" has it's own dna and there will NEVER be another one exactly like that? So as a prochoicer at what stage do YOU think it's not a "seed" and is a baby?

I really haven't made a personal decision as to exactly when a fetus becomes a baby. I'm perfectly willing to let the law (or the potential mother for that matter) decide the time limit. We could go round and round but as I stated in another post, it's an exercise in futility. I don't expect to ever want an abortion. For those that do, I think it should be their decision. They will have to choose what's right for them and I imagine that it's a terribly difficult decision. I think that decision should be their's to make.

I would answer yes, but, with the understanding that it varies from mother to mother.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

So just for the fun of it-what would you do with those teenage girls that hide their pregnancies, deliver and immediately kill it? In reality is that really that much different than a 9 month gestation abortion? They are both viable. Obviously in these teen/college cases the girls have some mental health issues. But I'm curious about prochoicers thoughs on these issues.

I have noticed that a lot of people like to point out that there is a difference between being pro-choice or pro-abortion.
Are you still on the same side you was 5 years ago? Or did the name change that occured in Jan. 2003
(5 years ago) change your postion on the abortion issue?
If the term was still pro-abortion would you still agree with it?

ETA: NARAL by any other name - Salon.com

The difference in being pro choice and pro abortion is that some people would never choose to have an abortion personally, but would never interfere in a woman's right to make a different choice.

I know that is what the abortion people pushed that idea for is marketing reasons. I understand why people want there to be a difference. Bad image..good image.

But the question was were the "pro-choice" people "pro-abortion" people 5 years (2003) ago. Or did the effect of the name change cause people to switch their stance on the issue.

That's not really an easy question to answer. I am never pro-abortion for myself. I do care in regards to others, but, only to the extent that I hate to see the ending of a potential life. By life I mean the actual living one does....such as telling someone to "get a life". I respect their choice, tho. So, I don't know how I would answer that.

That was a very interesting article, thanks for sharing.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

No, there's no change. We have always referred to ourselves as pro choice.

Anyone want to touch this one?

Do any of you who protest outside of the clinics also protest the war? There are hundreds of innocent children that are being killed. They may not be American children, does that matter? Since they are living breathing humans, does that matter. Just a simple question.

IMO, they should be charged with murder. I am not in favor of late term abortions, and think that while a woman should be given the choice of wether or not to abort, there should at least be limits.

Education and FREE birth control, that's what I want to see!!!

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I believe that this should qualify as murder. It does in every state.

The "born alive" bill was prompted by the testimony of the above referenced nurse who said she had witnessed a baby born alive, then placed in a linen closet to die. The state did launch an investigation and found her testimony to be false. However, she continues to repeat her story in fromt of right to life groups.

The bill itself contained language that would have granted personhood to every fetus. That was one reason it was problematic.

About abortion and young girls aborting because they're not married, too young, not the right time, etc. -- this is for the Obama supporters who also are for abortion ----

Obama's mother was only 17 when she became pregnant, she was unmarried and the father was a black man. This was back in the 60's. Suppose Obama's mother had decided to abort Obama because she was a 17 year old unmarried, poor white woman pregnant by a black man. Obama would not be here now.

Do you all realize how many babies aborted thru the years could have grown up to be powerful people? Look at Obama. His mother could have aborted him, but she didn't. Who knows how many great leaders, doctors, artists, teachers have been aborted because it wasn't a 'good' time for the young mother?

The above list usually is the criteria for abortions (young, unwed, poor, etc.) .

How many 'Obamas' have been aborted during just our lifetime? Something to think about......

I wanted to dig into your questioning, because I think it's valid.

This is what I found:

These are the stats for abortions in the US:

Historical abortion statistics, United States

So the last complete year was 2005. There were an estimated 1,206,200 abortions in that year.

I was trying to find statistics on the child death toll in Iraq. What I found was this:

ORB - Opinion Business Research - Newsroom

There was an estimated death toll "between March 2003 and August 2007 is likely to have been of the order of 1,033,000. If one takes into account the margin of error associated with survey data of this nature then the estimated range is between 946,000 and 1,120,000."

That is not just children, that is total over a 4yr period. So, lets just say roughly 250,000 per yr total death toll. I know that is not very scientific, but I don't know how else to get a yearly number for comparisons sake. Now, we have no way of knowing what the percentage is of children in that number, but even if we say it's half. . .that would be 125,000.

In my digging I found this:

Heiko: Iraq statistics continued

He brings up some good points, as far as, what deaths do we count towards "war" deaths as opposed to just deaths that occur.

That led me to wonder about the child mortality rate in Iraq. I found this interesting. It's from a socialist website and brings up lots of things besides just "death toll". Apparently US Sanctions had a devastating effect on Iraqi children.

It was during this period that the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) estimated that an additional half a million Iraqi children had died between 1991 and 1998 as a result of the sanctions.

In 1998, the coordinator of United Nation humanitarian operations in Iraq, Denis Halliday, resigned in protest calling the sanctions a form of “genocide” and “a deliberate policy to destroy the people of Iraq.” Halliday said at the time, “We are in the process of destroying an entire society. It is as simple and terrifying as that. It is illegal and immoral.”

President Bill Clinton’s Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, confronted in a television interview with the UN estimate of 500,000 children having died as a result of the US-backed sanctions, famously answered, “We think the price is worth it.”

Iraqi infant mortality soars to 150 percent--a damning revelation of US war crimes

I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this. Maybe just that there are substantially more abortions per year than deaths of Iraqi children due to the war. And also maybe that the attrocities against Iraqi children were substantially on the rise before the war.

And to answer your question, yes, many Pro Lifers protest the war. I'll ask you roughly the same thing. . .how many war protesters protest abortions?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Let's flip it around:
What about Jeffrey Dahmer, Jim Jones, Timothy McVeigh--their mothers chose to have them, but yet they killed or injured (either mentally or physically) 1000s.

Do you realize how many babies that have been aborted who could have killed people? Who knows how many dictators, mass murders, pedophiles, etc. have been aborted.

While I understand your point--here's mine: Even if a woman carries a child to term, gives birth, raises it--there's no guarantee on what that child will become. So much depends on how that child is raised, nurtured, and genetics (mental illness can run in families ya' know).
Life is too short to play the "what if" and the "if only" game....Sure, some woman may have aborted a child that could have become the next Louis Pasteur, but that same child would have become the next Ted Bundy as well.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I would like to think that the ratio of good to evil is a lot higher on the good side so we have probably lost more "good" people than Ted Bundys, etc...

Do you realize how many could have been Charles Manson? Something for you to think about.

I guess my argument to the whole "could have been Charles Manson" line of thinking is, are you Pro Death Penalty then? Are you suggesting that it is up to us as to who gets to live and who doesn't? Because at least Dahmer, Bundy, Mason et al. had the right to due process under the law. They were assumed innocent til proven guilty. I just don't see the point to this line of thinking.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Do you always see the glass half empty?

NOOOOOO....the analogy wasn't even remotely about who lives vs. dies or due process, etc.

It was about how no one knows what kind of an adult a baby will grow into. So, to argue "well, that child you aborted could have grown to be a great world leader" is a pointless argument, because the child that was aborted could have grown to be a dictator who inflicted nothing but pain and suffering on people. There are just too many variables....

Kind of like lighting firecrackers--sometimes they create a beautiful spectacle, some times it's just a bang and some smoke, some go straight up and then straight down, other times the firecracker is a dud--and still others you think they are a dud and when you pick them up, they blow up in your hand. Life, and people are like that. You don't know until you lite them....

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Ok, I see what you're saying. I just wasn't following the whole line of thought very well.

Somebody said that the unborn baby could grow up to be great and,

somebody pointed out that, equally, the unborn baby could grow up to be somebody horrible.

I get that now. . .I guess my next line of thought just went to. . .but who gets to decide whether that potential, good or bad, gets to be carried out?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

It's up to the pregnant mother to decide and unfortunately it's legal to kill your unborn child. And although some posters say it's only a baby if the intent and expectiation that it will become a baby is there it's still the ending of a life with it's own dna, etc..
I hope the future doctors who might cure cancer haven't been killed........if so, the ability to find a cure for cancer would probably trump one Ted Bundy IF you want to count lives saved. Not saying the families of the victims would feel that way or that it's ok to loose someone to a violent crime. But the potential benefits of doctors who could have cured cancer are huge! And yes, it's playing the "what if" game but it's something to thiink about. And yes, criminals on death row have more rights than unborn children.

The mother.
...apparently some people believe that there are only a finite number of people that have the ability to be great leaders, cure AIDS or cancer, or what have you. What kind of faith in God do you have, if you don't think that He could give the world another great leader, cancer curer, or peacemaker? What kind of faith in God do you have if you don't believe that he allows some pretty terrible things to happen for a reason--like cancer or AIDS? (you know if God brings you to it, He will bring you through it)?? Maybe, just maybe, a woman having an abortion is one of those life events that happens for a reason. Have any of you ever considered that? Maybe, just maybe, it really is part of the bigger plan. Can you, within 100% certainty tell me that you know God's ultimate plan for each and every person on Earth??

If all the abortions ceased right now, this very minute, what would happen? What about a year from now? 10 years? Let's go a step further--since there will be no more abortions then there will be no further treatment for infertility. If women are forced to carry to term, then there should be plenty of adoptable babies? Right?? OK, let's move on to the next step--no more birth control, EVER! I mean, women can get pregnant and if they don't want them there should be plenty of people just waiting to adopt, right? Oh, and no more tubal ligations or vasectomies either. We wouldn't want a potential Nobel Laureate to not have the chance to be born...Yes, I know it's extreme thinking. But I seriously wonder how many people have consider every aspect of no more abortions.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

It was just a philisophical question. . .who gets to decide? You jumped to a lot of assumptions!

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

and mine was a philisophical answer based on discussion that have occurred on here in the past.

Oh, and trust me--many, many people on here jumped to a lot of assumptions and conclusions--I don't think I jumped to assumptions, just playing devil's advocate of a possible scenario.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

"Just for the fun of it"?????? Pretty callous and shallow to play just for the fun of it on a matter that you yourself are so passionate about. "Just for the fun of it"????? You never cease to amaze!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

I believe that if cancer is going to be cured and God knows everything he will make sure that the person who is supposed to be curing cancer is born. I don't worry myself with such silly thoughts because I have faith that God is in control. Don't you?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Yes, I have fatih in God who is so great!!! I'm willing to bet my soul that God is NOT happy with all the abortions happening here otherwise why would he "have known you before you were formed in the womb"? And again, you missed the whole point anyway.......

I think colonoscopies are wonderful preventative procedures, but I wouldn't want to see blown up pictures of one......

__________________
"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

Thread closed at 50 posts...........

__________________
Nicole