And you know what? That is totally their perogitive! Whether you like it or not! I certainly don't agree with it, but I have to accept it (this is kinda how I feel about the whole abortion issue). We live in a democracy, and people are entitled to their own opinions. . .whether we think it is the "right" one or not! The only way it will ever be overcome is through education.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Very, very good post!

*sigh*
I didn't say anything regarding whether it was wrong or not---I was commenting on a post that stated "we've come so far". Yeah, we have come far, but race is still in play.

Unfortunately, until everyone is just looked at as a member of the "human" race--then racism will still exist.

I grew up in the deep rural South--I know racism. And I know that no matter what--some people are still going to have bias and prejudices against some or all other races but their own.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

No, it is not their "perogative" to express an opinion that is racist without question simply because "we live in a democracy and people are entitled to their own opinions."

The right to freedom of speech may give anyone the right to say the most vile, racist thing possible, but that doesn't immunize them from my right to criticize them for it.

And frankly, I find the analogy drawn between abortion and racism to be inane.

I understand the objections to abortion, even if I don't agree with them. I'm pro-choice. I believe that women have the right to chose whether to carry a fetus to term. Others see the fetus as a person, with all the rights of a person, and believe that abortion is murder.

That is a religious or moral difference which I can recognize and respect. Maybe I disagree with it, but I can respect the difference.

There is no similar religious or moral underpinning for racism.

And further, just by saying that, "ho, hum, just because there are these horrible racist things being said, it is OK because they have the right to say it so what's the big deal," tells me a lot.

Most specifically, it tells me that you don't think that racism is a matter of concern.

It also tells me that, at best, you are so woefully ignorant of matters pertaining to race that there isn't much that you can say on the issue that I can respect. If you think that there is anything remotely legitimate about the viewpoint such that it is entitled to its place in normal discourse, I just don't understand you or have any reason why I should listen to you.

And it tells me at worst, you think that this is a viewpoint that has some validity.

Which would make you a racist in my eyes.

And I will tell you that in almost two decades of working in the civil rights field, I've never made an accusation of racism directly. I've certainly believed it in other cases, but I've never been willing to come out and say it.

I am pretty close to it today. If you think that it is OK to have the attitudes of the 50s and 60s reign, and that Jenna was just a natural outgrowth of someone's prerogative, I think that you live in a world that I wished didn't exist.

And for anyone who supports the idea that racist viewpoints are just a "prerogative, and everyone has their own position, so what's the problem," I hope you can explain more why you think that expressing racist views is right or even should just be let alone because those views are the speaker's "prerogative."

Because I don't agree. And won't. And can't.

I have a racist uncle, and it was okay by me.

Why?

Because he seems to me to be good in pretty much every other way. Loves his family, works extremely hard, is honest and extremely helpful to people who can't help themselves.

His racism was against Japanese people. He fought in the war and was almost killed several times by the Japanese. I think that's something you don't ever get over, and it would seem silly to push my enlightened viewpoint on an eldery man who is a product of his experiences.

I think racistm is bad and wrong. But I think a LOT of things are bad and wrong. Greed. Lying. Stealing. Adultery. I hate those things as much as I hate racism.

Lovely. But are you willing to stand up and say, "Greed is wrong. Lying is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Racism is wrong."

Or, in the case of public discourse about racism, do you say, "Well, that's their prerogative"?

I will tell you that the one difference that I see in your parade of horribles, where you identify greed, and lying, and adultery, and racism, only one of those condemns an entire group of people.

Greed can certainly affect others that brush against the wrongdoer. So can lying. Adultery affects the person cheated upon and family members.

Racism impacts everyone who shares the characteristic that is being demeaned.

It is different. Greed, lying, adultery, all are highly fact specific. They arise in circumstances particular to that individual.

One of the problems with racism is that it doesn't account for the individual. Instead, the individual is subsumed into stereotypes.

And just because you think that there are bad things about in addition to racism, why would you be willing to let racism go unchallenged?

Why the *sigh*?

I couldn't agree more. . .BUT I disagree about the racism will still exist thing. Racism will still exist as long as people continue to act in a way that validates stereotypes. I know this first hand and it is a subject that is very near to my heart! I was VERY much in love with a man that typified the black male stereotype. He had two children, out of wedlock, that were born 4 days apart. He was there for his son, but didn't have anything to do with his daughter because "some other dude is acting like her daddy." He developed cancer while he was in the Army, started collecting SSI and never looked back. He smoked weed everyday and his whole life pretty much reveloved around how he was going to hustle his next buck to get more weed. He smoked Newports and rolled blunts in grape Swishers while he downed 40 ouncers. I went to a family reunion with him. Me and his cousin, Sedrick's, wife were the only two white people there out of about 150 people. When everybody started showing up, Sedrick looked at us and said, "It's a Dickerson family reunion! Hang on to your wallets and lock up your purses!" He wasn't kidding! Do I think these people were bad. . .no! Everybody was very friendly and accepting towards me. . .would I trust any of them. . .no. That was just being smart and listening to those that warned me. Ty's brothers and cousins contantly hit on me right in front of his face. You have to understand. . .I honestly have NEVER been with anybody before him or after him that I "clicked" with more. He was extremely emotionally supportive towards me. BUT. . .if somebody wanted to raise issue with him based on stereotypes. . .they would have been right. I hope this is making some sense to you. I tend to think that people that sit up in their glass houses and deem everybody else "racist" don't know what the hell they're talking about most of the time. If you don't like racial stereotypes than quit being one! Plain and simple. My SO is black and he doesn't fit any "black" stereotypes. He's a homeland security officer, NEVER steps outside of the law, is an extremely responsible parent and and takes personal responbility for evey aspect of his life. Stereotypes can't be blanket, but people who think they don't apply to anybody are misinformed. They are based in "some" truth. That's how they come into being and how they are perpetuated. We have to get back to personal responsibility. Judge each person individually! If you are white and say something bad about a black person. . .somtimes it's true. You can't chalk everything up to racism.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Black, green red, brown or white, your husband sounds wonderful!!

LMFAO!!!! You know nothing about me! Hmmmmm. .. here's a picture of MY son and his cousin:





Care to call me a racist again?? So sorry that I said that people in our country have the 1st Amendment right to experss their opinion whether we agree with it or not. You think the 1st Amendmant should be repealed for everyone who doesn't agree with you?! Apparently so! Like it or not. . .we live in a country where even dumb*sses like yourself are free to make assumptions and express their opinions. I have learned to accept that. . .grow up!

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Oh I'm not so sure about that. Seems to me that most American right now would think the "greed" of the oil companys are hurting a heck of a lot of people. Bank/mortgage crises could possbily be part greed problems too. Stealing government secrets and passing them on to an enemy could also have catastrophic effects on a whole country.

Those are two adorable kids!!!!!! Absolutely beautiful!!!!

Thank you! He's amazing! I love him more everyday. And to be told how I feel by people that never had the guts to "jump the fence" really inferiates me! Put your damn money where your mouth is! I KNOW firsthand what I'm talking about!

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

You know, you have just confirmed for me that you are stereotyping. You have taken a personal experience in your life which dealt with one very individual circumstance and used it to make try to paint yourself as an expert in the field of race and race stereotypes. And to prove that you aren't stereotyping, you are pointing to your current SO, and saying, "Look, look here. How can I be racist? I'm in this relationship. He's a good man. He's BLACK. He is law-abiding. The fact that he doesn't fit my stereotypes proves that my stereotypes are true."

What really strikes me is that you seem to think that your SO is unique. So, he doesn't step outside the law. Good. Really, good. And it distingushes him how?

Just to be clear, I think that many people who hold racist stereotypes aren't necessarily discriminatory on an individual one-on-one position. Some are, of course. But others aren't.

But man, the people who are stereotyping when they talk about the race at large are sure inclined to paint with a broad brush. Let's take your post. You say that "Racism will still exist as long as people continue to act in a way that validates stereotypes," and then you talk at length about your experiences with one guy who was black. But then you say that this doesn't mean that every black guy is bad, because "My SO is black and he doesn't fit any 'black' stereotypes."

Could it possibly be that there shouldn't be a "black stereotype"? Because maybe, just maybe, there are variations of individuals who are Black, good and bad?

And maybe for every story that you want to tell about bad blacks, I can tell you a story from a different perspective.

And maybe also, that I could overwhelm you with stories of really bad whites. Those on meth. Those who think that their race gives them some sort of god given right to be horrible. Those who beat their spouses or who abuse their children. I can also relate personal stories of all these folks.

You might not see them as fitting into a "white stereotype" though because you'll say, "all folks share those characteristics."

To which I'll say, "Yeah. That was my point."

Thanks Kathy! Btw. . .Jada, the little girl's mother is white too. Stiles, who's Dad is the Tyrone I have talked about before, is fairly light skinned and those damn green eyes! :

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I suppose it would be racist and stereotyping of me to say that bi-racial children/adults have such a pretty skin tone?
My African American friend was married to a white woman, now divorced, but his kids are gorgeous too.
Is that your hubby?????????

Well I guess you can't convince ole Dannyboy!! Your experience is valuable in this subject area. As I've said before, I have dated a black man (3 years) and a Latino man and was married to a Jew. I suppose none of those experiences would mean anything to Dannyboy either. There are definitely cultural differences but they didn't bother me. I found them quite interesting. I enjoy hearing about your experiences in this area.
And I didn't take your saying the wonderfaul characteristics of your husband as anything but what they are. You married a good man. Period. They do come in colors other than white!!!! lol

You miss my point! I say that people that DO stereotype aren't ALWAYS wrong! I never said that my current SO isn't the typical black male and said NOTHING about my own stereotypes or that he is UNIQUE, just pointed out that my child's father is what A LOT of people consider to be the stereotypical black male! If you want to argue what people consider to be the stereotypical black male. . .bring it! It has not been my experience with ONE black male that you assume. but this is a message board and I have to be brief. Like I said. . .people stereotype. . .it has alot to do with developmantal psychology and schemata. If you want to debate that fine. . .you aren't going to change neurobiology. Btw. . . what makes you an expert in black culture? Just curious?

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Not my hubby, but my son's father. And thank you again about what you said about my hubby. Never once did I say that his attributes are stereotypically WHITE! That was an assumption Dannyboy made. Hmmmm. .. who's the racist? My ex-husband and the father of my two oldest fits all the steroetypical things she mentioned as being "bad" white male. He was ill tempered and abusive. . .does that mean that people that make that assumption about white males are wrong? Not necessarily.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Yeah, I'm still willing to say that you might be a racist. Nice to know that you have people of color in your family. Strom Thurmond did too. Didn't make him any less a racist.

I will accept that you have the best of intentions. I'll accept that you think that you are fair and objective. I'll accept that, on an individual level, you think that there are good blacks.

My problem is that you seem to think that (1) people who express racist views are merely expressing their god given right to talk about their "perogatives" and we shouldn't challenge them, because they should be allowed to express their biased views; and (2) stereotypes about blacks are generally true because you know blacks who have acted consistently with the stereotypes as you understand them.

My problems are these:

One, there is no "free pass" for expressing racist views, and any one who thinks that there is shows a real failure to understand the issues of race in this country. And any relationship that you might have with an African American man doesn't give you a free pass either. Your assertion that the views of the 50s and 60s and Jenna were just assertions of someones' "perogative," and nothing more should be said, were disgusting.

Two, your belief that you can point to the fact that you have persons of color in your family and your SO is black doesn't buy you immunization either. Your views are yours. I would, just because I'm nosy, like to know what your SO thinks about you distinguishing him as a "good black" as opposed to your prior relationship with the bad "stereotypical black."

But that is just because I'm nosy.

From my perspective, you haven't bought absolution with your version of "my best friend is black." In fact, your insistence on addressing the perepheral issue of your involvement with persons of color, and ignoring the issue that I raised, which was how could anyone ever say that racisim was a matter of simple pregogative that shouldn't be examined or questioned, doesn't prove a thing for me.

As I said, I'm not accusing anyone of being racist. The fact that the only point that you can assert in favor of your position is that you have family members who are black, but not "stereotypical black," just makes my questions about your positions more pointed.

I don't get you or your positions. From my vantage point, you have no credibility. Hope you have a good life. Hope your relationship with your current SO goes well.

But I wouldn't trust your position on issues based upon race ever.

You are right. You don't convince me that simply because you dated a black man and a Latino man and were married to a Jew, you are somehow supposed to be an expert on what racisms means or who is racist. I'm going to judge you on you and what you say. I could give a rat's ass, frankly, whether you dated a black man, or a Latino man, or were married to a Jew (although I will say, where does this last come into things?) I will judge your point of view on you, and if I think it is vile, I'll say so, regardless of those things that you think gives you credibility.

You know what I find ironic? You tell me that I shouldn't listen to anything that the Democrats or Obama have to say about race, but at the very same time, people here who espouse an opposing view say things like they "have dated a black man (3 years) and a Latino man and was married to a Jew."

I don't understand how you can ask for things both ways. "Race doesn't matter, but ohhh, yeah, it does, because I have ways to show that it doesn't matter to me. And that means that I'm an expert in the fact that it doesn't matter. But it does, because I do have ways to show that it does matter to me."

Anyway, back to me. You are right. I'm not seeing anything here to change my mind. It doesn't matter to me if you have a black baby or a black SO. What matters to me is what you say. And I think that what some of you say is ugly.

You must have been quite the high school athlete with all that jumping (to conclusions) you do on here!! Of course you don't understand what we are saying because YOU are stuck with certain stereotypes yourself. I pointed out my dating because I'm supposed to be such a big racist! lol My definition of a racist would be someone who wouldn't date outside of their race or at least not date certain races. I mentioned my Jewish ex-husband because I am Catholic. But I'm also a bigot so I couldn't have dated or married outside of my religion either. I'm sooooooo closed minded!! lol

Please Dannyboy show me where I or hambirg said we were experts. i thought we were sharing our experiences. My bad! People do draw conclusions about their experiences in life. You are drawing conclusions about what hambirg and I are posting. You are right drawing conclusions about posters and we are wrong with our life experiences? Interesting way to look at things.

He's a cutie!!! Thanks for sharing the pics tonight! I understood what you were posting. Great minds think alike!!!

Quote Dannyboy:

Yeah, I'm still willing to say that you might be a racist. Nice to know that you have people of color in your family. Strom Thurmond did too. Didn't make him any less a racist.

Do you? Walk the walk and then I might give a little credence to what you have to say.

I will accept that you have the best of intentions. I'll accept that you think that you are fair and objective. I'll accept that, on an individual level, you think that there are good blacks.

My problem is that you seem to think that (1) people who express racist views are merely expressing their god given right to talk about their "perogatives" and we shouldn't challenge them, because they should be allowed to express their biased views; and (2) stereotypes about blacks are generally true because you know blacks who have acted consistently with the stereotypes as you understand them.

Show me where I said we shouldn't challenge them? I'm pretty sure what I said is that the only way to change those views is through education NOT that they shouldn't be challenged. That's why I brought up the whole abortion thing. People that express their right to be ProChoice have that perogitive. However, the only way to change anything is through getting the message out and educating people on the issues. I also NEVER stated that stereotypes are GENERALLY true. Show me where I said that!

My problems are these:
One, there is no "free pass" for expressing racist views, and any one who thinks that there is shows a real failure to understand the issues of race in this country. And any relationship that you might have with an African American man doesn't give you a free pass either. Your assertion that the views of the 50s and 60s and Jenna were just assertions of someones' "perogative," and nothing more should be said, were disgusting.

Yeah. . .show me where I said that "and nothing more." I think your passing judgement on somebody you know nothing about is prejudice and disgusting! So?

Two, your belief that you can point to the fact that you have persons of color in your family and your SO is black doesn't buy you immunization either. Your views are yours. I would, just because I'm nosy, like to know what your SO thinks about you distinguishing him as a "good black" as opposed to your prior relationship with the bad "stereotypical black."

But that is just because I'm nosy.

He thinks that "blacks" like my son's father give "blacks" like him a bad name! He wishes my son's father would "man up!" His words. . .not mine.

From my perspective, you haven't bought absolution with your version of "my best friend is black." In fact, your insistence on addressing the perepheral issue of your involvement with persons of color, and ignoring the issue that I raised, which was how could anyone ever say that racisim was a matter of simple pregogative that shouldn't be examined or questioned, doesn't prove a thing for me.

Peripheral issue??? Are you sh*ttin me? Only someone who has NEVER been in my situation could ever say such an idiotic thing! I never said "my best friend" I said my son's father and my husband!

As I said, I'm not accusing anyone of being racist. The fact that the only point that you can assert in favor of your position is that you have family members who are black, but not "stereotypical black," just makes my questions about your positions more pointed.

I don't get you or your positions. From my vantage point, you have no credibility. Hope you have a good life. Hope your relationship with your current SO goes well.

I don't expect for someone like you "from my vantage point" to EVER get my position! You are just like my ex-MIL. She's German and everytime she comes over here she scremes and bitches about how racist Americans are. . .but then goes into a diatribe about how the East Germans and Turks are bringing down Germany. Sit in your glass house and throw stones! When you come out of that glass house and get in the mud then let me know! Don't do MY son any favors by picking up the racism torch for him. He doesn't need your help and is quite capable of being a productive member of society all by himself!!!!

But I wouldn't trust your position on issues based upon race ever.

Good! I frankly don't give two cents about what you have to say about it either!

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Don't even bother, Kathy! Tonight while I'm laying next to my big hunk of a black man or tomorrow morning while I'm kissing my bi-racial child to wake up, I'll be sure to tell them that Dannyboy thinks Mommy is a racist because she believes in the 1st Amendment!

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Oh that is just priceless!!!!! Enjoy your man and waking your child in the morning! Love it!

This actually wasn't a "we were sharing our experiences" thread. This thread was about whether we should ignore racism because it was the so-called "perogative" of some people to be racist.

Personal relationships only came into things when some people felt the need to back their position up by pointing to the fact that they have relationships with blacks. Kind of the classic "my best friend is black" defense.

From my perspective, I don't care about what you tell me about your relationships. I have no way to judge them, evaluate them or distinguish them. I also don't find them particularly relevant for the same reasons.

I do care about what you say on matters of interest, and I don't particularly care about those things in your personal background that leads you to believe you are an authority. I'll consider what you say, but just because it seems like authoratative to you does matter much to me.

I get your talking points, Kathy. You don't need to repeat them. To recap: you had a relationship with an African American man. You dated a Latino. Your former husband was Jewish.

Fine. Really, truly, fine.

But why should the fact that you are or were in relationships with some individual guys in the protected categories really matter?

When the road hits the highway, I think that asking us to live quietly with viewpoints that are biased because that it the "perogative" is racist.

And i don't care who you are sleeping with. Your view is your view is your view. I think that the picture up thread is very cute. I'm sure you love the girl.

I still think that any position that is willing to forgive racist viewpoints as simple "perogatives" is racist. And my guess is that, when that cute little girl is about 24 or 25, she will too.

Please answer to what I posted. I'll recap it for you:

People have the perogitive in this country to believe whatever the hell they want! It doesn't matter WHO thinks it's wrong. . .they still have that right. I NEVER said we should idly stand by and watch it. I don't think racism or abortion is ok. Doesn't mean that people don't have the right to express their racist or their ProChoice views. Get it now???

ETA: Here's the 1st Amendment of the US Consitution, in case you forgot:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I'm short on time, so I'm not going to respond to you point by point.

I will say, "Chill." You have absolutely no basis to make the statements that you make and then go off the deep end because someone calls you on them.

Maybe that is unfair of me, though, since I have pretty directly accused you of holding racist views.

So, OK, your tirade is justified in the sense that who wouldn't explode when they were accused of racism? Maybe a couple of people here, come to think of it. I'll give you credit for understanding that being accused of racism is bad.

My accusations still stand though. I don't think your objections hold water.

Quickly, here are some of my responses to your diatribe.

Eww, big fumble on your part. I'm a civil rights attorney. Guess I walk the talk more than you do. So, give me a little credence, don't you know. I rarely point this out, and actually, don't think that I've ever pointed it out on this board or any board before.

But really, what more are you expecting from me? I haven't posted it before as a reason to believe what I say. But in response, I will say that I am an attorney. I do civil rights work. And I do it without charge to the persons for whom I seek relief.

I would think that is characterized as "walking the walk," wouldn't you?

Next.

I don't think that actually captures what you said. Specifically, what you said was this:

That's actually your whole point. It wasn't a post about the need for education. Your main point was that racists should be allowed to be racists because it was their "perogative"

Don't get this objection. You were the one who gave the free ride to persons who believe in the racist beliefs of the 50s and 60s and which were reflected at Jenna. I think it's disgusting.


Interesting. How does he think about your belief that racism is a personal "perogative"?

Are you really so out of touch that you didn't understand my reference to "my best friend is black"? It is a time honored defense of persons who may be racist. The point was that your viewpoint has value, but it does suffer from the same deformities as persons who assert that their best friend is black. In other words, why should we believe you when you are pushing the time honored defense of persons who are racist?

Oh yeah, that's a good response. Let's bring in the Germans. Don't know why they are relevant but let's bring them in.

I call Godwin's Law!

..........

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Isn't believing in stereotypes somewhat racist? I mean, if you accept stereotypes such as certain names are always AA names or think that because so and so is black and does such a thing that all blacks do so because of their color racist?

I have been taught and have taught my kids that there aren't any stereotypes. I don't believe that all people who are pro life are nutjobs with bombs strapped to them and all women aren't shrill, helpless creatures and all white people are out to get them because of the color of their skin and all conservative voters are not crazy Christian wingnuts just because each one of those catagories has some people who behave like that.

By putting all people of one color in one box and saying that anyone who falls outside that box is "good" and going against stereotypes is wrong. People are people,

You can be married and have as many friends of color or race as you want to but I wonder if they would be happy to hear someone say about them "They don't act like the stereotypical (insert woman, black, jew, conservative, latino, etc) I know that I would be offended.

I have never had to tell someone my husband's color or my friends color because I don't see them as colors or race nor do I consider them not stereotypical. I don't teach my kids that there are good blacks and bad blacks or good conservatives and bad conservatives or good liberals and bad liberals.

Now good and bad drivers, yes, but I don't differentiate that based on color or gender.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

There must be stereotypes about whites, too.

When it was mentioned that someone thought Obama acted "uppity" and those of us from different geographic areas became educated in what that term means in the south, I realized that if there were some characteristics that a black individual might adapt that seemed more 'white'.... then those characteristics must be stereotypically caucasian.

So what are those characteristics?

In my estimation uppity means to think you are above your station. It was what white people said about black people who were acting above where they were "born". A black person looking a white person in the eye for a simple thing to a black person thinking they were equal to white people, I am not sure it has to do with pretending to be white for black people. That would be called being an "Oreo".

I was under the impression, too, though, that 'uppity' was a term that black individuals used to describe another black individual that seemed to be trying to 'act white'... or more specifically, white and snooty. That was a conclusion I drew after googling the term that day, since prior to then I'd only heard the term used to mean someone who thought they were better than others

Why the sigh you asked? Because you seem to believe that you have some superior knowledge because you have co-habitated w/ a black man or two. Big Whoo! That just means you, apparently, find black men attractive in some aspect.

I have never indicated one way or another whether I'm racist. Honestly? I don't care what color you are, as long as you act half-way like you have a brain, take personal responsibility for you actions, and treat others w/ kindness and respect (assuming that the same kindness and respect is shown to you). And frankly, I don't sit in up in my glass house proclaiming everything as racism. I do know racial profiling though (something that you learn really quick in law enforcement!) And stating that a person is probably black based on their name is profiling--at one of it's purest forms!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

..........

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Co-habitated? Try birthed and married. *sigh*

We agree on the personal responsibilty thing

Also, assuming Lakeesha is black, Jaun is hispanic, or Bob is white is not racial profiling. Assuming Lakeesha or Jaun are more likely to commit a certain crime is:

Racial profiling is the inclusion of racial or ethnic characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act

Racial profiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I hear what you are saying. Racial profiling is like using someones name to pigeonhole them into a certain race to say they are commiting more crimes in your area. Is that it?

You like wikipedia, don't you? There's so much more to racial profiling---than just the criminal aspect. For example: (using your example of Lakeesha) Lakeesha applies for a credit card. Her name "appears" black, thus is denied credit because black people are more apt to skip on their debts. Lakeesha goes into the ER c/o of acute abdominal pain--the Dr. seeing that she's black assumes it's some sort of illegal drug reaction, either treats her and streets her for that (even though Lakeesha is still complaining of pain) or he assumes she's drug seeking (because she's black and well, the doctor thinks all black people use or want to use drugs) and doesn't treat her--Lakeesha dies in the parking lot from a ruptured ovarian cyst which caused her to bleed out internally. Assumptions are made EVERY day by professional people (who should know better)! So, really and truly? Racial profiling is much more than Driving while black!

Ah, so based on what you just posted---let's all go back and look at what KTS wrote regarding crime in her area (I'm not, but anyone who doubts me can): KTS did indeed commit the act of racial profiling! Ta-Da! And, assuming that racial profiling would be considered a racist behaviour, then the logical conclusion a reasonable and prudent person would come to is.......let's all say it together: She's racist!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Yes. . .that's what I'm saying.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I guess we differ on what the definition of racial profiling is. I see it as soley relating to law enforcement. The examples you give are examples of racial discrimination. . .and there are laws against that.

I wasn't here for the KTS crime thread. I will have to read it for myself. You might be right. . . I don't know.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Hey! Newsflash--while there may not be actual laws prohibiting racial "profiling", there are court decisions that indicate that profiling is at best a violation of civil rights, and at worse illegal.
Yeah, we'll have to differ on the definition of racial profiling--in my book, profiling is just discrimination under a fancy moniker!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Hey! Newsflash--I never said racial profiling wasn't a violation of civil rights or a form of discrimination. I just said that, according to the definition, it relates to law inforcement.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

no, what you said was YOU see it as solely relating to law enforcement.

And really? How can any reasonable and prudent person not see that racial profiling happens all the time....
Racial profiling--little Johnny is black, bet he's a good basketball player. Little Suzy is Asian--bet she's good at math. Little Mikey is white--but his family is from the South, bet he hates black people. For someone who claims to be so in touch, I'm finding that you really don't seem to be.
Maybe it's just your posting style, that seems to be an issue with others. Some of us just don't get all these different posting styles.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Well according to the ACLU you are confusing racial profiling with racial discrimination:

Racial Profiling: Definition (11/23/2005)


"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin. Criminal profiling, generally, as practiced by police, is the reliance on a group of characteristics they believe to be associated with crime. Examples of racial profiling are the use of race to determine which drivers to stop for minor traffic violations (commonly referred to as "driving while black or brown"), or the use of race to determine which pedestrians to search for illegal contraband.

Another example of racial profiling is the targeting, ongoing since the September 11th attacks, of Arabs, Muslims and South Asians for detention on minor immigrant violations in the absence of any connection to the attacks on the World Trade Center or the Pentagon.

Law enforcement agent includes a person acting in a policing capacity for public or private purposes. This includes security guards at department stores, airport security agents, police officers, or, more recently, airline pilots who have ordered passengers to disembark from flights, because the passengers' ethnicity aroused the pilots' suspicions. Members of each of these occupations have been accused of racial profiling.

Racial profiling does not refer to the act of a law enforcement agent pursuing a suspect in which the specific description of the suspect includes race or ethnicity in combination with other identifying factors.

Defining racial profiling as relying “solely” on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin or religion can be problematic. This definition found in some state racial profiling laws is unacceptable, because it fails to include when police act on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin or religion in combination with an alleged violation of all law. Under the “solely” definition, an officer who targeted Latino drivers who were speeding would not be racial profiling because the drivers were not stopped “solely” because of their race but also because they were speeding. This would eliminate the vast majority of racial profiling now occurring.

So yes, racial profiling is racial discrimination, but not ALL racial discrimination is racial profiling.


ETA source: American Civil Liberties Union : Racial Profiling: Definition

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Ahhhh....but, what do you think?
Hon, bless your heart, I'm not confused. I never have been. Racial profiling is assigning certain characteristics to a person, or persons, simple because of their race.
Of course, the ACLU is going to define the way they do! That's what the ACLU is about.
And I never once said that all discrimination was profiling--I don't know where you read that. I think you may be the one who is confused.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

You pretty much said it right here:

But of course the ACLU doesn't know what they're talking about.

I've already said what I think. . .racial profiling is racial discrimination, but not ALL racial discrimination is racial profiling.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I never said the ACLU didn't know what they were talking about---but their definition and perspective can be skewed because of their focus. Puhlease! That's just the nature of organizations with very specific focus. The ACLU has a place in society, and serves an important function--but they are biased.

Again, I will say--a doctor assuming that a black patient is on drugs (based solely the skin color/race) is profiilng. A creditor assuming that all black applicants are poor credit risks--racial profiling. Saying all black guys are good basketball players? Racial profiling. Saying that white athletes can't run as fast as black athletes--racial profiling. Saying all Asians are good at math--racial profiling.

You are assigning specific qualities and/or characteristics based solely on a persons ethnicity or race.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

But that's not the definition of racial profiling. What you are describing would be stereotyping.

stereotype - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary[2]

Main Entry: 2stereotype
Function: noun
Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type
Date: 1817
1: a plate cast from a printing surface
2: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern ; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

Don't like Wikipedia or the ACLU? Here's the definition from Amnesty International:

Racial Profiling

Racial Profiling
Racial profiling occurs when race is used by law enforcement or private security officials, to any degree, as a basis for criminal suspicion in non-suspect specific investigations. Discrimination based on race, ethnicity, religion, nationality or on any other particular identity undermines the basic human rights and freedoms to which every person is entitled.

It's really not even that big of an arguing point. Racial profiling is racial discrimination. Acts based on racial stereotypes are racial discrimination.

My point is, that making an assumption about somebody's ethnicity based on thir name is not, in and of itself, racist.

Take my friend, Joseppi Stortini, is assuming he is Italian based on his name racist? No!

If I read in the paper that Joseppi Stortini was convicted of racketeering, is assuming he is Italian based on his name, racist? No!

Is assuming he is Italian based solely on the fact that he got convicted of racketeering racist? Yes!

Is assuming that ALL Italians are mobsters and involved in racketeering racist? Yes!

Is assuming that ONLY Italians are mobsters and involved in racketeering racist? Yes!

Man, I don't know how to make that anymore clear!

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

So, I'll ask you the same question I posed to KTS---Know a girl name DeShea--what race is she?
Know another one name Lavon Smith--what race is she?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Once again Marilynk-for the millionith time-I didn't say ALL DeSheas or Lavons were black. THere's certainly a higher than average chance they are, just like Kim Wong is probably Asian and Juan Hernandez is probably Hispanic. Check out the African American baby name site-which none of you antagonists have done. Certain names and types of names are more prevelant in different races/cultures. That doesn't make that "racist". Geez, get off your high horse.

It doesn't matter what race I think they are. What matters, is if I place some preconceived stereotypes on to them based soley on their names.

See, if I say they are black, and you come back and say they're not. That doesn't make me a racist! I'm not placing any judgements on them based on what race I think they are. . .just trying to guess their ethnicity based on their names. If I was to assume some negative stereotype about them based on my assumption, THEN that would be racist.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

So, just so I'm clear--if say LAVON SMITH was arrested for selling drugs, and a person was to assume they were black based on the name and the fact that they were selling drugs...THAT would be racist? Or would that be stereotyping? Discrimination? or racial profiling? Just wondering....
oh and I think assuming that a person if of a particular race based on their stereotypical name--does qualify a person as racist.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Closed thread. Post limit reached. Please feel free to reopen a new one on this subject.

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