House votes NO on bailout.

I think final vote was
205 Yea (140 Dem. and 65 Rep)
228 NAY (95 Dem, 133 Rep)
1 not voting (I "thought" I heard that when vote total was announced).

yaaaaayyyyy!!!

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

And the R's are blaming the failure on Pelosi. I'm not sure why they're blaming her, but she finally did something I approve of.

I was so excited to hear this!!

Having not posted in over a year I probably should stay out of the political threads but this is just too crazy. Do all of you who are celebrating understand the ramifications of this? If they don’t stop playing political games and get this passed your credit cards are going to be cut off, probably within a couple of weeks, regardless of your rating it’s an across the board cutoff, thousands of companies will not be issuing pay checks because they do so on credit and millions of people will be out of work. It is down hill from there for everyone not just Wall St.

It’s a case of crying wolf and this time the wolf is really at the door. They weren’t playing scare tactics – they weren’t even being open about how bad this really is.

GE & GM couldn’t get financing this week. Caterpillar finally got it at twice the interest rate, which will mean their customers will pay if they even can, Many four seniors live on their 401ks and IRAs they are now being wiped out, we already have small businesses failing and it’s going to get a lot worse, if you think it’s only Wall St this will devastate you’re dead wrong.

__________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
-Oscar Wilde

Yes, I fully understand the "so-called" ramifications.

Now maybe real work will start of fixing the "root" of our problems in our financial world and the economy. We can not keep running on credit as a country. Some credit if used wisely is good in an economy. But running the entire system on credit is crazy.

If it would have passed it was not going to solve the problem only postpone and make worst what is going to happen. Yes, things will be hard..but I would rather clean up this mess NOW and not leave it for my children to deal with.


On the flip side - Do the people that wanted the bailout understand the power you were so quickly ready to give up to the current adminstition?
We gave up a lot of freedoms when the Patriot Act passed, even more left with FISA.

I know it's not just Wall Street.

But continuing to prop up the market falsely will only prolong the enevitble.

It's like if somebody maxes out their credit card and can't make the payments. Your suggesting we give them another credit card to max out to pay off the first one. . .only prolonging the debt collectors coming after them in the short term but making the problem worse in the long run.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

They are not so-called. The programming has already been done to shut down the credit cards - you will still have to pay balances but there will be no new activity - that by itself will hurt millions of people.

Did any of you even bother to read the bill last night? Most of the concerns have been met. The last revisions covered things pretty well, at least as good as it's going to get.

Nice you're willing to lose everything, fall flat and rebuild but the wolf at the door is China - there will never be an opportunity to rebuild an America as we know it, much of it will be in foreign hands.

It doesn't matter right now how we got here It is what it is. Personally I don't want to see the middle class collapse or my country either.

If you are interested you can read the the synopsis here

http://financialservices.house.gov/d...of_hr_3221.pdf

or go here for the full bill

http://financialservices.house.gov

__________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
-Oscar Wilde

why do peole get their pay check on credit? maybe that is part of the problme, too. It's all a big mess.

Yes, I read the new bill that was posted yesterday and I read the first one also. Plus we called my Senator and Rep and told them our concerns.

The country currency and economy is going to collaspe one way or another. NOTHING is going to stop that UNLESS we change and approach our problems.
You can either take the stuff now and deal with it straight up or you can continue the long drawn out process for decade or more (10+ years) with hypeinflation..

This is not just a sudden thing that has happen. People that have studied the Austrian School of Economics Theory have warned for YEARS that this was coming.
A FIAT money system never lasts.

By the way people can live without credit cards. It is called living within your means.

It is part of the problem - companies small and large get short term loans on a regular basis to cover everything bills and payroll. And we do need to change things NOW but we're never going to get the chance to change it if we can't shore up the economy temporarily and work to change things which includes the public being a little more aware and much more pro-active.

There is enough blame to go around everywhere including the American pulbic ourselves so all this "My daddy can beat up your daddy mentality is accomplishing nothing.

Actually the bailout could work to our advantage. The AIG bailout is already producing a profit - if this is handled properly and with oversight we could come out with a really healthy profit, which is desperately needed.

__________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
-Oscar Wilde

I lifted this off another board and it pretty much reflects my feelings on the issue:

Dr. Paul’s House floor remarks on the bailout
September 29th, 2008 by Matt Hawes

The process of this bailout reminds me of a panic-stricken swimmer thrashing in the water only making his situation worse. Even a “bipartisan deal”—whatever that is supposed to mean— will not stop the Congress from thrashing about.

The beneficiaries of the corrupt monetary system of the last three decades are now desperately looking for victims to stick with the bill after they have reaped decades of profit and privilege.

The difficulties in our economy will continue because the Legislative and the Executive branches have not yet begun to address the real problems. The housing bubble’s collapse, as was the Dot Com bubble’s collapse, was predictable and is merely a symptom of the monetary system that brought us to this point.

Indeed, we do face a major crisis but it is much bigger than the freezing up of Wall Street and dealing with worthless assets on the books of major banks. The true crisis is the pending collapse of the fiat dollar system that emerged after the breakdown of the Bretton Woods agreement in 1971.

For 37 years the world built a financial system based on the dollar as the reserve currency of the world in an attempt to make the dollar serve as the new standard of value. However since 1971, the dollar has had no intrinsic value, as it is not tied to gold. The dollar is simply a fiat currency, which has fluctuated in value on a daily, if not hourly, bias. This worked to some degree until the market realized that too much debt and malinvestment existed and a correction was required.

Because of our economic and military strength, compared to other countries, trust in America’s currency lasted longer than deserved. This resulted in the biggest worldwide economic distortion in all of history. The problem is much bigger than the fears of a temporary decline on Wall Street if the bailout is not agreed to.

Money’s most important function is to serve as a means of exchange—a measurement of value. If this crucial yardstick is not stable, it becomes impossible for investors, entrepreneurs, savers, and consumers to make correct decisions; these mistakes create the bubble that must eventually be corrected.

Just imagine the results if a construction company was forced to use a yardstick whose measures changed daily to construct a skyscraper. The result would be a very unstable and dangerous building. No doubt the construction company would try to cover up their fundamental problem with patchwork repairs, but no amount of patchwork can fix a building with an unstable inner structure. Eventually, the skyscraper will collapse, forcing the construction company to rebuild—hopefully this time with a stable yardstick. This 700 billion package is more patchwork repair and will prove to be money down a rat hole and will only make the dollar crisis that much worse.

But what politicians are willing to say that the financial “skyscraper”—the global financial and monetary system-is a house of cards. It is not going to happen at this juncture. They’re not even talking about this. They talk only of bailouts, more monetary inflation, more special interest spending, more debt, and more regulations. There is almost no talk of the relationship of the Community Reinvestment Act, HUD, and government assisted loans to the housing bubble. And there is no talk of the oversight that is desperately needed for the Federal Reserve, the Exchange Stabilization Fund, and all the activities of the President’s Working Group on financial markets. When these actions are taken we will at last know that Congress is serious about the reforms that are really needed.

In conclusion, there are three good reasons why Congress should reject this legislation:

a. It is immoral—Dumping bad debt on the innocent taxpayers is an act of theft and is wrong.

b. It is unconstitutional—There is no constitutional authority to use government power to serve special interests.

c. It is bad economic policy—By refusing to address the monetary system while continuing to place the burdens of the bailout on the dollar, we can be certain that in time, we will be faced with another, more severe crisis when the market figures out that there is no magic government bailout or regulation that can make a fraudulent monetary system work.

Monetary reform will eventually come, but, unfortunately, Congress’ actions this week make it more likely the reform will come under dire circumstances, such as the midst of a worldwide collapse of the dollar. The question then will be how much of our liberties will be sacrificed in the process. Just remember what we lost in the aftermath of 9-11.

The best result we can hope for is that the economic necessity of getting our fiscal house in order will, at last, force us to give up our world empire. Without the empire we can then concentrate on rebuilding the Republic.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Why in the world is Pelosi blaming the Republicans when the Dems have the majority? That's just insane.

I don't want the government involved at all. Let the cards, errrr houses, cars, etc fall where they may. We cannot continue on this amount of credit and continous borrowing and the US further and further into debt.

I do not trust Congress with 700 billion, such a staggering number. Tell me really, how can they truly verify it's all being spent when, where and how as directed? If a bailout now, then what about next week, and the next week and the next week?

I believe the government should do nothing. Uninsured investments are just that, uninsured, take a chance.

This is a huge mistake for the taxpayers to foot the bill on this one.

So someone loses their house. Let someone else buy it and maybe instead of buying "up" maybe some will have to be in reality and buy "down"........much less not everyone is meant to own a home.

dl

Yeah, it's not just homeowner's: (sorry the article seems to cut off mid sentence)

THE ROYAL Bank of Scotland is to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the planned $700 billion bail-out that comes courtesy of the American tax-payer if the US Congress gives the financial rescue package the go-ahead today.

The bank's share of the bail-out will enable RBS to offload billions of dollars of questionable assets.

The bank's shares closed last Friday at 205p, a 71% fall from their pre-credit-crunch peak. However, analysts and investors predict that the shares will rebound sharply when markets open on Monday morning if the bail-out is approved over the weekend.


The Edinburgh-based bank will be able to write off a significant portion of its dodgy assets thanks to the bail-out, also known as into Tarp, the Troubled Asset Relief Programme as a result of the bank's significant presence in the US.

Tarp was the brainchild of US treasury secretary Hank Paulson, who earlier this week got down on his knees and begged Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic House speaker, to rescue his plan to save Wall Street.

The Royal Bank, led by chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin, has had operations in the United States since 1988, when it bought the Rhode Island-based Citizens Bank. It has since bulked up its presence there with a string of acquisitions including those of Connecticut based Greenwich NatWest and Ohio-based Charter One.

This entitles the Scottish bank to entrust billions of dollars of non-performing loans and sub-prime tainted assets to US taxpayers, according to Colin McLean, chief executive of Edinburgh-based SVM Asset Management.

He could not quantify the exact amount of dodgy assets that RBS can offload but said it could amount to "billions". In total, RBS has outstanding loans of $1.5 trillion This will give RBS a significant

Rbs Will Get Billions In Us Bailout Of Economy (from Sunday Herald)

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

That's not only depressing, it's scary.

Well your asserting that is questionable too. Pelosi is blaming them because it's their fault and probably because the minute they hit the airwaves the R's began blaming her for them not bringing in their own votes.

It's a strange time we live in. You see the R's and D's had a meeting. In the meeting Pelosi promised she could find 140 votes, the R's promised they could find enough more to pass the bill. Guess what. The D's delivered their promised votes, (something I'm not particularly proud of), and the R's didn't deliver the needed and promised votes. So how can that be Pelosi's fault? I didn't see McCain or Bush managing to corral their own people for the vote. Ignoring Bush I can understand, he has no political capital left. McCain should have some, but evidently doesn't. It's a strange time we live in.

Excellent points made.

YouTube - Karl Rove Reacts to the No Vote on the Bailout!

OMG, I knew this was bad. But I had no idea it would destroy this economy so fast. You can tell with Bush, it looks like he aged 20 years since last week. Thank you for posting. I am glad that you did. I do hope that people stop playing the blame game.

Congress needs to listen to people like this that understand how the problems occured and possible solutions from them. Instead they are listening to the very people that created the mess.

Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer - CNN.com

"Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan."

If they do not pass this bill, or another like it, (and, no it's not perfect) then we are in for a very deep financial downturn. It means there's no credit. Soon, no jobs.

Everybody knows that the Paulson plan was rejected immediately by both parties, don't they?

Will Naysayers See the Pain?

I for one, am very glad the R's voted against it. I wouldn't be out there bragging that so many Dem's voted for such a flawed plan. Here's how the vote broke down according to party:

Key to the 228 to 205 defeat was a group of House Republicans opposed to a massive government interference, combined with Democrats who said the bill did not do enough for everyday Americans. In the final tally, 140 Democrats and 65 Republicans voted in support, opposed by 95 Democrats and 133 Republicans, a mix of conservatives, liberals and, significantly, members in tough re-election fights.

This is politics at it's finest. . .or worst.

The Dems promise 140 votes in favor if the Repubs can get enough votes in favor to pass the plan. Sounds like the Dems wanted to pass the plan. Then Pelosi gets up and gives her speech against it, knowing that the bail out is unpopular with voters. She is just trying to cover her hiney. If she thinks it's going to pass, she looks good with voters while knowing it's going to pass anyway. If she thinks it's going to fail then she looks like the leader on that. She's a pure politician. . .and I don't mean that as a compliment. In the end, they can point fingers all they want. . .I'm just glad it didn't pass.

Check out this little gem from Barney Frank:

Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said Republicans were "covering up the embarrassment of not having the votes."

"Because somebody hurt their feelings, they decide to punish the country? I wouldn't have imputed that degree of pettiness and hypersensitivity," Frank said.

So sorry we didn't bail out your cronies, Barney, Mr "Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis" Frank. Maybe they were actually listening to the voters on this one. Pettiness and hypersensitivity? No, just tired of getting bent over by you. To make yourself feel better maybe you and your buddie Dodd can throw a big party at his big house. . .don't forget to invite your escort friends.




Nation & World | Bailout rejected: Angry voters put pressure on pols | Seattle Times Newspaper

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Passing any kind of regulation is just going to prolong the agony. They should let those companies file bankruptcy like so many economists are suggesting.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

We need Congress to understand if they pass a bill..it must not contain things that are dangerous. They tried to bury stuff in this last bill.

I usually do not agree with Daily Kos (one of the most liberal websites) but they did point our some of the major things wrong with this last bill that got voted down yesterday. This was not the one Paulson tried.

Daily Kos: Update: Screaming in a Burning Theater: Zero Bank Reserves

It can be scary if you don't understand it. It isn't any big deal though.

There will still be credit for those worthy of getting credit. ALL credit would not dry up. It would only be harder to get credit instead of the easy credit that people have gotten use to.

Business and banks that are managed right will survive. Places that still practice good sound business principles stay a float. Not all banks are in "trouble" such as BB&T they also disagreed with the bailout.

Business that have paid their CEO's ten of millions of dollars instead of reinvesting their money in the company probably will not survive.

ETA: Really, I do not think that anything Congress passes is going to take care of our economic/financial problems that we are facing now.

Exxon is still around and they gave their exiting CEO $64 million on the way out the door.

Maybe banks that invested wisely will survive but some won't. I'm not worried about Bank of America. When a lot of the customers to whom a bank loans become unemployed, they will not be able to pay their mortgages, car loans or credit cards. They won't be able to keep that up for long. What is your employer going to do when he needs to draw on his credit line to meet payroll and cannot? He won't be investing in new technology or keeping everyone on payroll. Think new businesses will develop without credit? Think again.

I haven't heard any support for Paulson's plan so BB&T is hardly unique in their opinion.

I am sure that this Congress will follow what President Bush wanrs. They have handed him everything + that he has wanted. (FISA)
Amazing that it is Republicans mostly fighting the Republican President.

This year (so far, that I can remember)
The stimulus check package didn't help.
Housing package (homeowners, etc) didn't help
Give billions into other programs have not helped.

I really do not think this "rescue" package will help either. Probably before Thanksgiving there will need to be another type of bail-out.
Already talk of another "economic stimulus package" for businesses on top of this current bail-out.

I think the US is in for years of rough times.