Fri., Oct. 3, 2008

WASHINGTON - Republican John McCain's campaign says Sarah and Todd Palin had a gross income of nearly $170,000 last year and paid nearly $25,000 in taxes.

The campaign also says the couple made nearly $130,000 and paid about $12,000 in taxes in 2006.

McCain's campaign released the joint income tax return Friday for his vice presidential nominee and her husband.

The couple donated more than $8,000 to charity over two years.

Yeah...that sounds like middle class to me.....right?

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This is what is so funny. She spoke about "those of us with small amounts of investments are losing them" and her references to herself as one of the regular folk is such a lie. Speaking of Obama as being one of the elite when she makes more money than most Americans.
The middle class is not those making over 100,000. much less 150,000. She is not middle class.

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Yes, she is. Compared to the rest of Washington, including Obama, Biden and McCain, she definitely can relate more to average America than any of the Washington crowd. Middle class is defined differently in different sections of the United States.

In those two years they supported four children on an average annual income of $147,000.

Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden and his wife, Jill, earned an average of $284,000 in 2006 and 2007—and they have no dependent children.

Barack Obama, and his wife, Michelle, who have two dependent daughters, averaged $2.6 million in those years. John McCain, and his wife, Cindy, who had two dependent children in 2006, cleared $6.4 million that year—almost all of it from Cindy McCain.

Hey...I have some land in the Everglades to sell ya! It's great to build a house on!

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They are most definetly upper middle class. My brother and my SIL make more than that and are considered middle class.

The professional/managerial middle class
The "professional class", also called the "upper middle class", consists mostly of white collar professionals, most of whom are highly educated, salaried professionals whose work is largely self-directed. Many have graduate degrees, with educational attainment serving as the main distinguishing feature of this class. Typical occupations of the Professional Class would include University Professor, Physician, Lawyer, Journalist, Architect, Physicist, Chemist, Engineer, and Airline Pilot. Household incomes commonly exceed $100,000, with some smaller one-income-earner households having incomes in the high 5-figure range.[2][6][11] Class members usually hold college degrees and often hold graduate degrees.[2][12] Middle class professionals tend to conceptualize, create, consult, and supervise in their occupations. As a result, upper middle class employees enjoy great autonomy in the work place and are more satisfied with their careers than non-professional middle class individuals. The educational attainment among the members of this class lends the professional middle class some immunity against economic downturns and an above-average lifestyle while also serving as the main entrance barrier into this class.[8] This class, partially due to its occupations, does have a great influence on American society and is often seen as social standard despite its relatively small size.[8] In terms of financial wealth and income, the professional middle class fits in the top third, when excluding the top 5% of American society.[13] According to sociologists such as Dennis Gilbert, James Henslin, Joseph Hickey, and William Thompson, the upper middle class constitutes 15% of the population.[2]

The upper middle class has grown… and its composition has changed. Increasingly salaried managers and professionals have replaced individual business owners and independent professionals. The key to the success of the upper-middle-class is the growing importance of educational certification… its lifestyles and opinions are becoming increasingly normative for the whole society. It is in fact a porous class, open to people… who earn the right credentials.

American middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Obama's made 4.2 million last year.

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You know that the speeches that Gov Palin gave spoke about taxes being brought for the middle class, those of you making 42,000/year. She intimated that she was one of those.

She doesn't live in DC, she lives in Alaska, where I admit the cost of living is higher but it isn't that high where 170,000 means the same thing as 42,000. It is sorta misleading, don't you think?

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As the liberals so often point out, she hasn't even been governor for two years.

This may be their best year ever, financially speaking.

What did she make as mayor of Wasilla?

She has undoubtedly spent more time on the 'working class' end of life than the $100K+ end. A teacher father, a school secretary mother, doing pagents for the scholarship money... she is not someone who grew up on tea, crumpets, and fine wine.

She didn't say UPPER middle class in her speech, she said middle class. Are you suggesting that someone that brings in $170K in a household is the same as someone bringing in 40K? Is the cost of living in Alaska DOUBLE what it is for the rest of the country? I don't think so.

We all started out making less than we do now. When I started working I think I made $2.75 an hour as a teenager. Of course as times progress and your career progresses you make more money....

For someone that can afford to give $8,000 to charity out of their gross income to say they are middle class? I don't think so!

Since you love Wikipedia so much, I got the definition from their site as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class
The middle class, in colloquial usage, consists of those who have some economic independence but not a great deal of social influence or power. The term often encompasses merchants and professionals, academics, bureaucrats, and some farmers and skilled workers.

Social hierarchies and their definitions vary. There are many factors that can define the middle class in a society, such as money, behaviour and heredity. In many countries, it is predominantly the amount of money that determines an individual's position in the social hierarchy. In other countries, social factors may have as strong an influence. These factors include education, professional or employment status, home ownership, or culture.

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This is what Palin said:

Now, that's not what we need to create jobs and really bolster and heat up our economy. We do need the private sector to be able to keep more of what we earn and produce. Government is going to have to learn to be more efficient and live with less if that's what it takes to reign in the government growth that we've seen today. But we do need tax relief and Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year. That's a lot of middle income average American families to increase taxes on them. I think that is the way to kill jobs and to continue to harm our economy.

I don't see anywhere where she is implying that the Palin's make $42,000/yr. I think anybody with half a brain knows that no govenor makes that. She said that only $42,000/yr is a lot of middle income families.


I did found this as for the cost of living in Alaska:

The most recent ACCRA data include three Alaska cities – Anchorage, Fairbanks and Kodiak –and indicate that all three are at least 23 percent more expensive than the average city in the index. (See Exhibit 7.) Until recently, Juneau was regularly included in the index and was generally the most expensive of the Alaska cities studied. The three Alaska cities are more expensive than average in every category – groceries, housing,utilities, transportation, health care, and miscellaneous goods and services. Housing costs for the Alaska cities are noticeably lower, however, than in some parts of the country. For example, ACCRA housing costs are much higher for San Francisco, Honolulu and Manhattan.

And I ran these numbers. I put in the Palin's income of $ 170,000 and ran it if you moved to Virginia. I just picked that randomly becuase it is a swing state.

The cost of living in Richmond, VA is 25.2% lower than in Juneau, AK. Therefore, you would have to earn a salary of $127,110 to maintain your current standard of living.

ETA: Upper middle class, lower middle class. . .still all part of the middle class. Which the Obama's are not a part of.

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Toonces, that $8K was over two years time, I believe.

My husband and I do that and we make way less than they do.

We try to give at least 10% to our church - more when we're able - and if someone just makes $40K/year and tithes, over two years, you've got your $8K.

Again - I think that for the vast majority of her adult life she has lived a pretty middle class life, possibly even on the lower end of the middle class scale, as I can't imagine a small town mayor makes all that much money.

And frankly, I wouldn't want a President or VP who has lived a *solely* middle class life. I like the notion that someone has worked their way *up* from where they started. Don't we want someone who has lived at several spots on the spectrum to represent us, collectively?

Where is middle class defined? Just wondering, is there a chart like there is for the poverty line? I don't think $100,000 is really a lot of money in today's economy. I certainly don't consider it poverty, but, especially living in Alaska with 5 kids, I don't think it is a lot.

I'll have to google to see if I can find a "middle class" scale. I never really thought about it, just figured we were doing well, must be middle class, didn't realize we're actually living "high off the hog"

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As a senator??? And, if they made that much, how can Michelle Obama say she can relate to people trying to pay their bills, etc. I guess they just have bigger bills???

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Come on, she was speaking to the middle class and you know it. It is all right for her to make 170.0000. It doesn't matter how much either of the candidates make a year. I don't care. Her Joe Six Pack and being a Hockey mom is trying to connect with a certain group of people who are usually middle class....those who make a living where they may struggle. Those people she is trying to connect with aren't making 170,000 per year.

Her husband makes over 50 bucks an hour, I understand as a fisherman. I don't know many middle class husbands who make 50 bucks.

I have half a brain and I understand exactly what she is saying. She is trying to reach some people by pretending that she is one of them when in reality she is not. Perhaps she used to be before she became a mayor or the Gov. By the way, Obama was raised by a single mother and they were on food stamps and his education was funded by loans and scholarship and grants. The money he earns has been won by hard work. No one gave it to him, nor did he marry into it. But when he talks about the middle class, he can speak to it because he came from below middle class. And he isn't pretending that he still is the middle class. Palin is. Don't deny it. I always thought you were someone who was fair. And it is a fair comment to say that she is trying to portray her family as one of the group, the middle class and the other guys are the elite who are out of touch with the rest of us Middle Class.

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august, I think you have really missed a lot of this campaign.

Michelle Obama explained all of that back in Zanesville, OH this past summer.

She and Obama have been living on magic beans.

She also told women to forego lucrative careers like hers and go into helping jobs like teaching and nursing instead.

And all that sounds well and good, except in the same speech she also lamented the high cost of keeping your kids in piano and dance.

So I guess she wants to keep a job that will let *her* kids have those things, but nobody else should aspire to such.

Too bad we don't all have magic beans!

And of course Countrywide charged the Obamas a HUGE interest rate on their home because they make so much. <snicker>

Here is what I was talking about:

"Now you said recently that higher taxes or asking for higher taxes or paying higher taxes is patriotic. In the middle class of America which is where Todd and I have been all of our lives, that's not patriotic. Patriotic is saying, government, you know, you're not always the solution. In fact, too often you're the problem so, government, lessen the tax burden and on our families and get out of the way and let the private sector and our families grow and thrive and prosper. An increased tax formula that Barack Obama is proposing in addition to nearly a trillion dollars in new spending that he's proposing is the backwards way of trying to grow our economy."


She's comparing herself and her family that brings in $170K (last year) to the average middle class family. She may have been middle class for some period in her life, but she is no longer what I, and most of the middle class would consider middle class. What she is trying to convey is ....hey...I'm just like you! But she's not...she's SO not like us.

Here's the link to the transcript from the debate that I took the quote from
http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/pr...al-debate.html

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I really don't know if you're trying to be obtuse or you truly don't get it.

Do you know how long the fishing season is? Approximately a month.

Did you know he isn't *paid* hourly for fishing? How much he is able to make is dependent on the price of fish per pound. He's a risk-taker and runs the risk of just coming away with $1 an hour if the fishing is bad and the prices per lb. are low.

You are trying to portray the Palins as elite, but it just doesn't pass muster. You are basing your assumptons about their lifestyle on one year's tax returns.... and that year happens to be the year she held the highest office she has ever held. I have to assume that a few short years ago when she was Mayor of Wasilla she was making considerably less.

If they have money, it's new money. And I'd venture that *having* it is fairy new to them.

There are charts on this page.

Lower middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Interesting chart! Thanks

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Hold on...

I didn't think we got to quote Wikipedia around here...

She is still considered middle class, yes upper middle class, but that is still part of the middle class.

Last year the Palin's made $127,000.

Commercial Fishing is seasonal. Yes they make $50 an hour, but they generally only work 2-3 months. It's not like $50/ hr for a regular job. I know people in commercail fishing. You try to make the most you can in the short season. . .and the seasons are getting shorter all the time.

I've been looking for their 2005 income and can't find it. I know I've seen it before and it was in the $80-90,000 range. Sarah Palin was earning about $61,000 a year as Wasilla mayor.

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Some might not know that Obama sends his girls to a school that "most" middle class people could never dream of affording. I am very happy that he is able to do this.
Same way that Palin was brought up in a middle class family and has done better in life.

I do think that both Obama and Palin have a great appreciation and understanding of coming from low to middle income roots.

Political Radar: Obama Takes His Daughters Back to School

"The elite charter school costs between $15,000 to $20,000 a year in tuition. Michelle Obama currently sits on the board"

Tuition chart ..financial aid is available also.
http://www.ucls.uchicago.edu/operati.../tuition.shtml

But here's the difference, Palin calls herself middle class. If Obama said he was middle class, I missed it. I heard this on the VP debate the other night.

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The Associated Press: Palin tax returns for 2006 and 2007 released

(snipped from the above article-click link for full text)
Sarah Palin is the breadwinner and husband Todd is, well — he takes a lot of deductions for his fishing and snowmachine racing careers, according to 2007 and 2006 federal tax returns released Friday.

Sarah Palin makes $125,000 a year as Alaska governor. Plus, since she took the job in December 2006, she hasn't paid taxes on the more than $17,000 she received in controversial per diem payments for working out of the family's lakeside home in Wasilla — some 575 miles from the capital of Juneau.

For the 2007 tax year, Todd Palin's self-employment brought him $66,893 in gross receipts — $49,893 from fishing and $17,000 from snowmachine racing. But, the returns show, he claimed so many deductions that he reported only $15,513 net profit from the fishing operation and claimed a $9,639 loss from his racing, leaving him with an overall net income of only $5,874. In addition, Todd earned $43,519 last year working part-time on the North Slope for BP Exploration.

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I'm sorry, but does tithing constitute charity? I sincerely don't know, I'm just asking!

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They were looking at tax returns, so I am assuming that yes, it's all the same thing. If you gave to a church or to a women's shelter it would all show up as a 'donation'... and I think in order to qualify for a deduction, that entity would have to have 501(c)(3) status. I don't think their return would break down exatly what 501(c)(3)'s they gave to.

The other poster indicated that someone in the middle class couldn't possibly afford to give away $8K... and I do think that there are probably a lot of religous people who give up that much all the time and don't think much of it because it's what they've always done.

I thought I heard her say she was middle class or she intimated that she was. I don't think she was talking to those who make over 100.000 per year when she said what she said about those of us who may have some small investments or something like that. Sort of the aw shucks, I am just like you all that she is portraying when she isn't like the majority of the lemmings who are fawning over her Joe everyday persona.

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This makes perfect sense to me. He does have others who work for him in the fishing business, correct? Their pay would've come out of the $67K in gross receipts. So would gas for the boat... and the nets... and payroll taxes due for those who work for him... and liability insurance... so yeah, I can see how there would be a lot of things to deduct before you were clearing a profit.

Same for the racing - makes sense. The government would require him to report any winnings from races as income, but would also allow him to count his expenses related to the sport as part of his cost of doing business. If you win a $10K prize but the quipment cost you $19K, the prize didn't exactly put you ahead of the game financially. I saw a special on snow machine racing and apparently snow machine racers put a lot of miles on those things, and tend to purchase two of them per year if they are into it as a serious sport. One they use for practice and drive until it almost falls apart. The other they drive a minimal "break in" amount and then use the day of the race... and by the end of the race it's apt to be toast, as well.

Exactly how much do you think they were able to invest during those recent years when their income was more like $80K (which in Virginia would be like $60K... which is probably about what a couple of married teachers would bring home, but without the guaranteed pension a teacher would get)?

Just askin'....

No, you are missing my entire point. I am saying that she is trying to portray herself as just one of the middle working class like more than 50 percent of the population when in fact she isn't just like them. I got the idea that she isn't exactly being honest about it when she spoke about her small investments. I don't care nor worry how much she has in her investments, the point is she is perpetrating that she is like those people who make much less than she does. Where I got the idea is where the investment thought came in and where she talks about the elite like the Obama's when in reality they came up the same way she did, maybe worse but both have done well for themselves and it isn't anything to be ashamed of but to portray yourself as anything but what you actually are is not honest. (Geez, what a run on sentence) What I mean is she may have been poor once, but so were the Obamas. By hard work, both have had a great increase in income. That isn't the point. Sarah is pretending to be middle class, seriously middle class, by pointing out how ordinary she is.....joe six pack, soccer mom or hockey mom, worrying about how to afford her kids education. In reality, she is making an above average income. To point out that the Obama's make much more is silly. They are both lawyers and never claimed nor intimated that they were middle class. But Sarah Palin is closer to the class that the Obamas are in than she is to more than 50 per cent of the American people.

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According to McCain, you're rich if you make more than 5 million a year. I guess he would consider those making less to be in the doggone middle class.

For me, the problem with all of this is that she is STILL calling herself middle class.

She didn't say I used to be where you are, she said that she & Todd have been there all their lives, which to me, indicates that she still considers herself middle class.


Not so much.....

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Unlike the Hollywood elite, unlike the Obamas and the Clintons, some people can find themselves earning more money but still very much remain rooted to the 'selves' they have always been.

Some people remain unchanged by money.

Middle class is as much about a state of mind as it is about money.

I am guessing that their $100K+ income has only been a factor for them for twoish years. Maybe three.

If I suddenly found myself in the upper middle class rather than the lower middle class or middle middle class, you betcha I'd still *feel* like a middle class girl at heart. I'd still consider myself right there in the same class of *people* as the people I'd always chummed with.

The hiarity in the fact that ya'll are arguing this point is that Michelle Obama, a woman who has been in the upper upper upper netherregions of the middle class for more than a decade was opining and commiserating with a bunch of mommies in Zanesville, OH earlier this year.

Michelle Obama's 'helping industry' - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Do you think the women of Zanesville where the poverty rate is double that of the national average bought it when she whined about how tough it was to pay her law loans off *and* put her girls through ballerina classes?

To me they are upper middle class. . .that would still make them middle class. My brother and my SIL are middle class. Lots of people in high tech around here avg over $85,000 a year. . . with two of them it's $170,000 a year. . .still considered middle class. I don't think she ever said she makes $42,000 a year. Less then 3 years ago the Palins were making about $80,000 a yr. . .living in Alaska, which the cost of living is roughly 25% higher than in the lower 48, with 4 (?) kids. Michelle Obama says she can relate to people not being able to pay their bills. . .how many years ago would that have been for her?

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So, now we complain because the Obama's went to college and got into good law schools and make a very good living because of the type of education they worked hard for. Gov Pain went to no less than 4 colleges and got a degree in Sports Journalism. (not a lot of money in that field unless you get a job with the "elite media".)

I don't see the Obama's as being elitist. They drive their daughters to school, pay for dance lessons and art class. They paid off their student loans. You can bet that when not if Palin writes her book and it is at least a bit better than what she comes off in during interviews, she will make a butt load of money, just like Barack did. Then will we call her elite? Will she still be considered middle class?

The point is that she is trying to perpetrate something that she isn't. It is clear. She pretends to be like your neighbor and perhaps in person she is but monetarily, she isn't.

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Don't Alaska residents of all ages also get a yearly non-taxable "bonus" (wrong word I know) for being residents which if I understand correctly ranges somewhere between $1,500 to $3.000 per year depending on circumstances. For their family of 6 (before Trig) that would amount to a somewhere between $8000 to $18,00 additional household income. I think even by Alaska standards they are upper middle class.

I frankly don't care how much money her family makes but I do think she is trying too hard to pass herself off as Sarah six pack. I'm much more comfortable with Senator and Mrs. Obama who quite honestly can say: "We pretty much came from nothing moneywise and look where our belief in ourselves and our country and a lot of hard work got us".

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Thank you. You get it. This is exactly my point too. I have no problem with what her family has now or will have in the future, but don't try to pass yourself off as Sarah Everywoman. You're not.

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Exactly what I was trying to say. But I have had a few glasses of wine tonight and I am having trouble spitting it out. LOL

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Obamas are not elite???

Have you seen their house?










Here's Palin's house. You decide:

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Who is your post directed at?

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This thread was not about Obama, it was about Palin's taxes and the fact that she wants us to believe that she's middle class. I guess you feel that you have to bring Obama into it. What he has to do with the thread I have no idea.

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Wow, I love the Senator's house. Thanks for finding the pic.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

It's been my experience that one needs to look at several things to determine the true value of a house/property.

Does Obama own the home/property?
Does Palin own?

If either or both own, how much actually land (property) is included with the home?
What is the median home value of other homes in the area?

Age of the home? Condition of the home? How much equity does the owner have in the home?

PLUS, the value can also be directly related to whether or not *I* like (would live in) the house....

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Obama's Middle Class Appeal | The Trail | washingtonpost.com

I am looking for the actual speech he made. The full text of it. Here is the article from the link. He is/was saying "not so long ago" he was middle class. I think they ALL try to relate to "common folk".... you betcha I think it is really boiling down to those FOR Palin will say "yes, she's more middle class than Obama" and vice versa for those not in the McCain/Palin field.

JMO, of course.

By Shailagh Murray
NEWTON, Iowa -- Meet Barack Obama, man of the people.

The Illinois senator is weaving new threads about his life into his stump speech, recalling a time not long ago when he was a member of the beleaguered middle class -- just like so many of the Jan. 3 caucusgoers he's battling Hillary Rodham Clinton and John Edwards to win over.

Speaking before a large, enthusiastic crowd at a local high school gymnasium here, Obama described the ordinary problems, like daycare and housing costs, that he and his wife Michelle confronted as recently as five or six years ago, before he was elected to the U.S. Senate and became a best selling author.

"We were still struggling with all the student loans we had to pay off after law school, because neither of us were rich," he said. "Our parents couldn't provide us with all that education. We had to borrow. We hadn't started a college fund yet for our kids. We hadn't started saving for retirement. We had some credit cards we had to deal with. We were living in a small condo that was getting a little too small for our two kids."

People nodded their heads. "I was doing the grocery shopping," Obama continued. "Michelle shopped at Target. She does still shop at Target. She really loves Target." He quoted his wife telling him, "I think one of the reasons you'd make a good president now is...we're not that far from being normal."

In one of his standard riffs, Obama asserts that his career choices -- community organizer, civil rights lawyer, elected official -- underscores his commitment to public service and to bringing about political and social change. He always mentions the lucrative job offers he turned down, but today he added a new line.

"That's why I didn't become a trial lawyer," Obama told the Newton audience -- a clear dig at Edwards, who made millions in the courtro

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Marilyn, I can't answer those questions for you.

I'd like to know what sort of a deal the Palins got on their mortgage.

We do know a little bit about the Obama's mortgage:

CALIFORNIA YANKEE: Obama's Countrywide-like Sweetheart Mortgage Deal

Well, since we're broadening our online sources to include cayankee, the following from Ms. Huffington is offered as a counterpoint to Mr. Yankee who, btw, quotes extensively from the Washington Post (that liberal media rag).

Entire article at: Washington Post Publishes Specious Story On Obama Home Loan

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

A .30% savings on a seven figure loan saved him more each month than I spend on groceries.

Seriously.

Wow, you spend less than $300 a month on groceries? You're a great little shopper!!

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Mabye if more people were "great little shoppers" they wouldn't be in some of the messes they get themselves in......huh???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Hey, I work hard at it.

Doesn't include my kids school lunches, but yeah... I do.

Breakfast today: Homemade waffles and bacon - total for five people, $2.75

Waffles: Total cost about $1, including the syrup
Bacon: $1.75/lb, Great Value Brand from SWM

Lunch: Chicken Salad Sandwiches and chips for about $3.35

1 b/s chicken breast on sale for $1.98/lb, making one breast about $.75
Grapes: $.98/lb... used about 1/3 lb... so $.33ish
Walnuts: about $.30 worth
Miracle Whip (bought on sale this summer for $1/jar)... used about $.30 worth
Day old deli whole wheat buns: $.75
Chips: 2/3 of a bag that cost $1.59... Ruffles... on sale.. so about $1 worth

Tonight: Grilled pork chops and baked potatoes.... $5.50

Chops: $4.50
Potatoes: About $.30 worth (20 lb bag on sale for $2.99)

Looks like for meals I went over my $10/day goal by about $1. The kids have snacked on plums and grapes... probably ate about $1.50 worth.

I'm feeling a little ashamed. I was living above our means today, I guess.

ETA: I just realized I mis-spoke about the b/s chicken breasts. I cooked up two, and they weren't b/s. The package said it was $1.90. They were on sale for $.98/lb at the time I bought them. We have enough left over for DH and I to have this again on Monday for lunch. Those breasts were monster-sized.

Just wanted to correct the record. I did cook up a couple of the b/s... but that was to make enchaladas to freeze tomorrow...

She is part of the middle class, the upper middle class, but that is still the middle class. We brought Obama into it because Barack and Michelle have talked about how they struggle. . . on their $4.2 million.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Looks like a total of $13.10 for the day including the snacks -- but maybe somebody used a coupon.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Exactly!!! Senator and Mrs. Obama shopped around for a mortgage and saved themselves $300 a month.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Well, keep in mind that it's the weekend so I fed everybody three meals plus snacks.

Monday night's spaghetti and salad will run about $4, and the oatmeal we're having for breakfast will be about $.30, and the fruit smoothies will be about $1.50, total... so my average will be fine come Monday night.

Don't your kids complain if they don't have milk and sugar on their oatmeal? Channeling Dickens' Oliver Twist.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Milk? nope.

Sugar... I do put about a tsp on each one's oatmeal... and sprinkle cinnamon on, as well.

Must be a regional thing -- I never heard of not putting milk on oatmeal. Possible whole new thread topic.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

The problem being is that there is no evidence of said counter offer and they won't disclose what lending institution it came from.

If there was a counter offer, why not disclose that information? What's the harm in that?

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

No - I grew up with milk in my oatmeal. But I realized if I made it thick so it stuck to their spoons (when they were little) it was much less messy.

My mom makes it for them sometimes and puts milk in it and they think it's disgusting! lol

Perhaps this is thread-worthy!

Hamberg, you're right - it would be wise of them to pony up that information in the interest of full disclosure and to avoid any quesiton of impropriety. It wouldn't bother me a bit to say what institutions we shopped.

Think the term used was competing offer, not counter offer which IMO changes the meaning entirely. I can get a chevy at dealer X for less then dealer Y. There is no need to take a note from X to Y to get the lower price at Y, I'll just go with X.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Yes. . .they don't need to produce any paperwork from dealer Y. But if your running for President of the United States and there is a question about the propriety of your car deal. Then tell us who dealer Y was, so it can be verified that there was, in fact, a competing offer and everything is on the up and up. Then we can all move on.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Sorry should have completed my thoughts about X and Y. The point I started and failed to finish was maybe there wasn't in fact a competing offer but when one is "shopping" for the best deal it doesn't hurt to say, whether it's true or not, "I can get a better deal down the street". At which point the seller can put up or shut up. If the deal you're looking for is anywhere near a profitable deal for the seller he'll likely take it. BTW, I hope you noticed that the Senator did not get the best interest deal being offered by the bank at the time he took the mortgage -- he got the mid-range of that offered.

I'm not saying that is what happened but it is a possibility. All things considered I think it's a silly thing to get hung up on but whatever ...

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Yes, but you do know that Obama's tax paper's don't match what he is saying about his mortgage rate? And therein lies the problem. And if even if he went to the mortgage lender with a "fake" other offer to get a better rate, why not just say that? That's not what he's saying.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Tax papers? Where do you have to put your interest rate on your taxes?

You're making the assumption that he said there was a "counter offer". The wording used in the write-ups I've read is "competing" offer which to my mind are 2 competely different things. LOL re "And if even if he went to the mortgage lender with a "fake" other offer to get a better rate, why not just say that?" My gosh the outrage that would create -- I can hear it now "what a lying, conniving sob he is." Too funny!!

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Another site covered this as well:
Bank VP said:
As I understand it, this is known as private banking. High net worth individuals are given financing discounts and incentives, like a very competitive mortgage for example, and in return the bank manages that client's other accounts. The 'downmarket' equivalent of this is when a lender will give you a small discount on a consumer loan for opening a checking account and using automatic payment.

I imagine the McCains have got some good rates on their homes, based on their income, social standing and business partnerships.

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l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

Uh. .. you get to write off your mortgage interest. . .it doesn't take a brainiac to figure out the percentages from those numbers. He did say there was a competing offer. If he just said there was no competing offer and he said that during negotiations to get a better deal, I dont think anybody would fault him for that. But not being forthright about it does make him look like a liar. And him not disclosing his true interset rate does make him a liar.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Yeah, great. But according to his taxes his rate was more in the 4.26% range. And they still can't figure out who paid his property taxes. It apparently wasn't him.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

closed thread.....past post limit

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