There was talk on the thread about socialism and the term of redistribute the wealth. Here is a article....

Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.

The comments are among the most signficant yet in a debate raging on both sides of the Atlantic about growing income inequality and how the super-wealthy are taxed.

Do you see that a multi millionaire paid about 17% tax bracket.....most hard working middle class people falls into 25%-34%+ tax bracket.That is what redistribute the wealth he is trying to get across. That somebody making millions is not at a % than someone making 40,000. How is that socialism? He just want them to pay what is fair.......

Indeed, what is wrong with this picture?

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

"To illustrate one of the pernicious effects of socialism to my classes, I will often ask students what would happen if I decided to minimize failure by taking away points from the A students and give them to the F students. What happens to the incentives faced by hard-working students who get good grades? What lessons are learned by the stereotypical lazy student who customarily just gets by in school? Also, what would likely happen to the overall class performance, over time, when such a grading policy is in place?" - Christopher Westley

There is a difference of putting in place a fair tax system or a system that takes from some and gives to others.
Taking from some and "giving" that money to others is wrong for a "government" to do.
What Obama wants to do is give money to people that did not earn it. It is one thing for the poor not to pay the same in taxes but another to expect to give them all that they paid in taxes and more back to them.

You will see the bad effects of this type of system. There is no incentive to ever do better because as an individual you will be penalized (more money taken from you as you are sucessful and given to others that chose not to apply themselves).

I am not against a fair tax sytem. Yes, there are too many loopholes in our current system that needs reform

Cite, link, proof of any kind whatsoever???

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

PoliGazette How to Counter Obama’s Tax Plan

"Barack Obama proposed a tax plan on Monday, which he said would result in 95% of Americans receiving a tax cut, and 5% having to pay more.

Although such a plan would go well with voters, the reality of the situation is that his plan does not constitute a tax cut of any kind. Rather, his plan would give a tax credit to 95% of Americans. First everyone would have to pay taxes, after that the government would (give some of) it back.

The above gives room enough for criticism from fiscal conservatives, but there’s more; not only would the government give (some) money back, it would actively redistribute wealth. 33% of Americans do not pay taxes, yet they will receive the so-called ‘tax credit.’ If you do not pay taxes, yet receive the tax credit, you receive welfare pure and simple."

Also read Obama's tax plan. Once again seems so easy to do.

Another link

Obama's 95% Illusion - WSJ.com

"In other words, they are an income transfer -- a federal check -- from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this "welfare," or in George McGovern's 1972 campaign a "Demogrant." Mr. Obama's genius is to call it a tax cut.

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS."

A tax credit? Like the $5,000 one McCain's health plan gives people???

I've read the plan. We disagree on what it says. Fortunately, it appears many more people agree with me than with you.

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

As far as reference to Warren Buffet goes..he can do as he pleases with his money. I have no idea if he choses to help the "poorer" people.
I do know that others such as Bill and Melinda Gates do help by ways of they foundation.

"Rich" people are free to give money or their time to community organizers, faith based programs, local programs, foundations etc,

I just do not like the government deciding that they can take my money and give to others that they chose. I think that should be an individual decision..not government.

I guess you're not voting, then, because MCCain's for darn sure doing that.

Every penny that goes to government is allocated without my -- or your -- input.

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

I like Buffet but I do think he could start by paying his staff more. A secretary in that position should be making more than 60K.

And you must be ok with that, supporting even more of it.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Interestlingly, forest, I believe Buffet funnels his money through the Gates Foundation as his way of giving to charity.

If Warren Buffet is paying a lower tax rate then I'll bet it's because Warren Buffet has a high powered lawyer and accountant who structured his holdings in such a way that he was able to take advantage of a number of loopholes.

Nobody made him do that.

I'm sure there are plenty of ways he could structure things, but he chooses to go the way of the least possible tax consequences. He shouldn't whine about the low rate he pays if he was free to pay what he considers a 'fair' rate and chose to finagle the system. Legal or not, if he considers it immoral, he shouldn't do it.

In many ways, we are already a socialist country. Those with earned income and head of household status can get back tax money they never paid. Teenage mothers get free daycare at school, health care, welfare, etc, etc. People on welfare don't get married and have more children because they have learned how to work the system. Who says we have to give money for people to rebuild their homes when they didn't have insurance? Who says we have to give and give and give? We just gave 700 billion away. I speak generally, yes, I know there are those who use the hand up instead of hand out, but it's rampant. Socialism is already up and running. It's a feel good thing for congress, both sides........

dl

Did you read the post it said "WITHOUT" trying to pay lower taxes..,Those loopholes are what Obama is trying to close........The EIC...Hello that has been going on for a long time....The EIC most people who are held of household and low income get 5000+ back in income tax.....I dont agree with this...I think if they are going to give them the EIC they need to use it for food, rent and if the have any kind of energy assisatants than they should be made to use the EIC for that...

Obama wants the upper 5% to pay thier fair tax.period period period. The EIC is already there and if you look at the lower income on Obama tax plan making 20,000 and 2 kids and file head of household your tax credit would be 500 more a year

Now that I think, this is kinda of funny that the Right wing is throwing the word socialism about Obama...I believe whe have been is a socialism country for the past few years.
Under George Bush partial nationalization of banks and giving welfare to big corps, is kinda of socailism thing to do.

It sure is. . . but are you saying you support that then? It's a good thing and we should be doing more of it? When is enough enough?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I'm sorry but I don't believe that. The only way Buffet isn't paying a higher percentage of his income into taxes is if he's structured his holdings in such a way as to be able to avoid them. If he was taking a standard paycheck from Berkshire Hathaway as it's manager - a paycheck just like the ones most of us get - he'd be in the top bracket.

The brackets don't get SMALLER for those who make more - they get LARGER. His should be as large as they get!

So if he's not there, it's because someone worked to make sure he wasn't. He may have all of his money in the name of his company and he may have his company pay for all his meals, etc. He may live in a company-owned home.

Then again... am I remembering right that he still lives very modestly, and perhaps even in the same house he's had since he began Berkshire Hathaway? If that's true and he's not *taking* any income, then it would make sense that he wouldn't be in a top bracket. I know my parents and the couple with whom they were business partners built their business but didn't take a dime out of it. They both had another source of income and that was what they lived on. They built their business together as an investment for their future and the future of their families.... so while the company was successful and had a seven-figure value, they never paid any personal income taxes due to that venture. It only becomes taxable when you start paying yourself or when you sell.

No I dont support it...I was being snarky...

But you do support Obama "redistributing the wealth?"

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Tax Cuts Explained

from David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D. Professor of Economics 536 Brooks Hall University of Georgia

Let's put tax cuts in terms that everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

€ The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
€ The fifth would pay $1.
€ The sixth would pay $3.
€ The seventh $7.
€ The eighth $12.
€ The ninth $18.
€ The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

Now, the dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share'?

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal. So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
€ The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
€ The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
€ The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (29% savings).
€ The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
€ The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
€ The tenth now paid $50 instead of $59 (15% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man "but he got $9!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got nine times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $9 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are other places offshore with nice restaurants and good business opportunities.

Wowitsdark


AMEN!!! That is exactly what's been happening. . . and is going to happen exponentially.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Do i support a fair tax system yes..........

Ya know, I'm all for voluntary redistribution of wealth.

I think anyone who wants to be generous should be free to do so. Whether they are rich or poor, if someone has something and sees someone else in need, I think they have a moral obligation to care, and depending on the circumstances perhaps even a duty to share.

But I do NOT think that the government should have the right to decide how much of the money in Person A's bank account should instead be in Person B's.

No way, no how, not ever.

And what's your definition of fair?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Ok. All this talk of socialism and redistribution of wealth and in the other thread about Palin getting all that extra money for special needs children and all y'all cons think that is just fine. Honestly I have no problem with it either but.... How is that different. I don't have a special needs child but she wants to take more of my money and give it to someone else. Why is it ok to take my money and give it to a special group. Like I said, I don't really have a problem with this but you guys are acting like shes a goddess for doing this but let Obama try to help a special group with your tax money and you act like he has evil intentions.

Socialism (to a point) isn't the evil thing the right is brainwashing people to think it is.

Even Albert Einstein had socialist views

And

Well, Einstein was wrong and the Communist experiment that was the Soviet Union failed.

And what specific special group is it that Obama is trying to help with our tax money? Are they the likes of special needs kids who can't help themselves? There is a place for government in helping that population within it's own society that can't help themselves.

BUT. . .

The answer to every problem isn't government intervention. Socialism doesn't work because we don't need Central Government controling and planning everything in society. People do a good job of actually ordering themselves. Private endeavors are more efficient, more expediant and more effective when compared to government bureaucracies. The fact of the matter is, when government gets involved they usually make things worse.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

My idea of a fair tax system.

We are middle class are income tax bracket is about 28%+(income falls 75,000-100,000)

Somebody who is making millions and millions a year paying less tax than me is not right!!!!Less tax I mean % wise. not money wise.....

But $ wise they are paying way more than you! Which contributes more to society?

This penalize success is insane, the worst case is in estate taxation, money that was ALREADY taxed.

The top 1% carries the heaviest tax burden now at 21.4% (average tax rate)
Taxation | Perot Charts

The tax rate and the percentage actually paid are two entirely different numbers.

"A relatively small proportion of the U.S. population pays a disproportionately large percentage of federal income taxes. For example, in 2005 the top 10% of taxpayers paid 69.7% of the total income taxes collected by the federal government."

I think that leaves 90% of taxpayers paying about 30% (which a portion of that pays 0%)
Fair?

When 1% holds more wealth than the bottom 50%, yes, it's fair.

That is the fundmental disagreement I have.
I do not think in a "free society" that government has the right to take just because I have more.
One day the government that gives you the money (other stuff) from others will come and take yours to give to others.


"Can a moral case be made for taking the rightful property of one American and giving it to another to whom it does not belong? I think not. That's why socialism is evil. It uses evil means (coercion) to achieve what are seen as good ends (helping people). We might also note that an act that is inherently evil does not become moral simply because there's a majority consensus.

An argument against legalized theft should not be construed as an argument against helping one's fellow man in need. Charity is a noble instinct; theft, legal or illegal, is despicable. Or, put another way: Reaching into one's own pocket to assist his fellow man is noble and worthy of praise. Reaching into another person's pocket to assist one's fellow man is despicable and worthy of condemnation."
Walter Williams

We aren't talking Socialism here. Never have been.

How is it fair? Because they make more, probably work harder, made smarter investments? Let's be honest. . .if it was that easy to make all that money, we'd all be doing it!

And the fact is that we NEED that 90% of the tax dollars of those top 10%. They have the means to take it else where. And then what?

The Warren Buffet argument is just silly. If he feels he's not contributing his fair share, there is nobody preventing him from sitting down and making out a check to the federal government. The truth is that these wealthiest 10% choose to bypass the bureaucracy of the government and give to society directly usually through private foundations. I would rather have that. It's more effecient and more of the money goes to those that it is suppose to be helping.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Maybe you have not been talking about Socialism..but a lot of the posts in this thread have mentioned socialism.

What about football players, baseball players, models singers, and can not forget about the people who won lottery..............No the Warren Buffet in not silly.....I dont mind that people who are lower income are not paying the same tax as me.....paying less..........I am not saying tax the upper 1% for 1/2 thier income. but when somebody is making millions and paying less tax than somebody making under 100grand there is something wrong with the system.........The last time I look he wasnt going to go to Bill Gates and Oprah and say well lets give this family 5000 from you.......this is just random numbers If I make 50,000 my tax is 5,000 someone else make 25,000 thier tax is 2,500 now somebody making 1 million and thier tax is 5,000 or less......

Warren Buffett's point is that he pays a lesser percentage of his income in taxes than you do. He doesn't work very hard. Most people who fall into his income bracket made it the old fashioned way; they inherited it.

I think that as a society, we would be a lot better off if wealth were more evenly distributed. Meaning that work is always compensated by paying a living wage.

Whether you realize or it not, you are advocating a sort of class sytem where those privileged few toss a alms to those below.

We need a standard flat tax.

Everyone whould have to pay the same income tax percentage REGARDLESS of their income bracket!!!!!

__________________

Please find me someone who makes a million & pays less taxes than someone making 100K. I'm thinking either one is going to jail or the other needs a new accountant.

I said I was just throwing out random numbers.....you can be certain that there are people out there making a million not paying to much more than somebody making 50,000 with no kids, being single and not being a home owner.

Then show me!

I showed you the one example from Time with Warren Buffet......

I have heard
-its hard to believe
-thats silly
-he should pay his people more
-prove that Buffet made that-sorry I dont have his tax forms with me right now.
I could show 1000 thing supporting what I just said andi would get the same response from the people who dont support Obama....

I agree with what you said. I hate to see people fall on hard times, but, when it is there own doing, they need to own up to it. Come on people, how much is property insurance???

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I agree with this as well. I also agree that if you take away more from the "rich" they will give less to the "poor". Not exactly the analogy I wanted, but, I think we understand it. Just like right now.... people are feeling pinched, and charitable donations are down, this effects the poor, who rely on these things, much more than the rest of us.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

First, who cares? If John Doe spends a lifetime earing $1,000,000,000, paying income taxes on it along the way, I think if he wants to leave it to his kids... his charity... whatever... he should be absolutely free to do so and shouldn't incur a big tax. Do you have a clue how many people lose family farms - farms that are big enough to support a family but not on a huge income - because when Grandpa dies, the value of the land is such that it has to be sold off so that the tax can be paid. Unless John Boy also has cash stashed away to pay taxes on Grandad's place, the farm is going to be lost. Happens all the time.

And if someone has built a solid business and then dies, the inheritors may very well have to either sell it or take out a loan to pay the inheritance taxes they face. And that's sad, IMHO, because all along the way that business generated income and people paid plenty of taxes on that income through the years.

It belongs to the person who dreamed it up, who worked hard to make it exist, and the government got it's share every step of the way. Why do they get MORE - often punitively so - when the person dies?

I just think that's flat out wrong.

And by the way, your stats are wrong. Most wealthy peope in America didn't inherit their money.

Check these google results.

first generation millionaires - Google Search

Military housing has gone to a "privatized" set up, less gov't involvement, for this reason.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yep. . it really puzzles me that people that are sooo opposed to Bush and what he has done in the last eight years would want to sign up for even more under Obama. If you don't want to vote Republican then don't. . .but don't support more of the same government intervention that you so vehemently oppose. Don't like the bailout. . .don't think government is very efficient at being the middleman, then why in the hell do you think anything that Obama is proposing would be better???!!!

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Yes. . and if just anybody could be the sports star or rock star. . .then everybody would be. People that have lower incomes DO pay less in taxes under the current system. I don't think anybody in the higher tax brackets are paying fewer dollars than somebody who isn't. . .the percentages might be lower, but they aren't paying less.

It sounds to me like you are proposing a flat tax. There is nothing wrong with that. . .EVERYBODY pays the same percentage on their income. BUT we already have a progressive tax, where the more income you have the higher percentage you pay. That's the system we currently have. .. to say the wealthy should pay even more just because isn't "fair".

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

The wealthy do not pay thier fair share....they have all the loopholes tax shelters etc etc etc......We have been in what I like to call the screw me bracket......we make to much money to get the benefits what lower income people get...and not enough to get the benefits of the wealthy....Like I said I dont want the rich to pay more.....just what is fair!

Those loopholes in the laws are there for everybody. I understand what you are saying though. . .it's much easier for the rich to find and take advantage of them.

I guess my real problem is that I think the government hasn't been a good steward with our money. I don't think that raising taxes on the rich and lowering them on the poor will solve anything. Taxes should be lowered across the board and government should be forced to be better at spending our money. We need to "force" them to use it wisely and efficiently. . .until then we are still dealing with this system where we all get screwed.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

The New York Times tried to do an article on those who lose the family farm due to the estate tax. They couldn't find a single example.

I am saying that the ultra rich should not pay a lesser percentage of their incomes in tax than do the middle class.

My stats aren't wrong. Most wealthy people do inherit their money.

KV..No your stats ARE wrong, the majority of the wealth is NOT from inherited money, as shown in the link provided by google above your last post.

I would like a source for your stats, please. I did my best to show you where I got mine.

closed thread......post limit reached

__________________