Boy, I bet Joe's glad that McCain brought his name into the debate.


After Debate, Glare Of Media Hits Joe

I wonder how long before we find out Joe is a registered Republican, or did the plumbing in one of McCain's many houses, or has some other tie to the GOP. Joe sounds an awful lot like a poorly placed plant.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Joe is the grandson of Charles Keating.

rotflmao!!!

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Reading is Fundamental.

I read somewhere that he is not even registered to vote.

He's a registered voter (although not an undecided one) but there was a misspelling of his last name on the rolls which is why it didn't show up at first.

Maureen

Cost to Joe the plumber to ask Obama a few questions of importance...a rectal exam.

Obama and his media minions threatened by Joe the plumber......priceless!

Yep. . .

Like I said before. . . Joe didn't put words in Obama's mouth. Even if he was a plant, it's still Obama's answer that a lot of voter's don't like and that is on nobody else but Obama.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Martin Nesbitt the treasurer of Obama’s campaign, has tax liens and so does his companies. You would think that matters more than the tax liens of Joe the Plumber, wouldn’t you?
Obama

Yes, you go right on thinking that.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but a blog doesn't constitute proof of anything.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I sure will. . ..

You think the McCain camp somehow told Obama how to answer the question???

The fact that people didn't like Obama's answer is nobody's responsibility but Obama's.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I think it is a disgrace how people and the media want to change the subject into destroying the person.

I thought Obama himself thoughout his campagin says he would only like to talk about the ISSUES.
The issue is not WHO Joe the plumber is but rather the ANSWER on the ISSUE that Obama gave.

I don't think anyone that comprehends basic economics is bothered by Obama's answer.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I think it's a disgrace that the McCain camp sets up a patsy like Joe the Plumber and thinks people won't find out the truth. No one is "destroying" Faux Joe the Plumber -- people just want the truth. And the truth is he's not a licensed plumber, he's not undecided, he's apparently nowhere near going to buy the business he says he is, and he doesn't even pay his current taxes, so why would he worry about an increase in taxes he's not going to pay?

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

WRONG again.
To name just a few: Peter Schiff, Jim Sinclair, Jim Rogers, Mike Shedlock (Mish),
other professors, economist that post at Ludwig von Mises Institute - Homepage (Austrian school of economics)...

Yes, the Ron Paul team. How is Ron's candidacy going these days?

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Reading is Fundamental.

WRONG again.
The only one I listed that is highly associated with Ron Paul is Peter Schiff

Since you mentioned Ron Paul.. Seems like he still gets lots of coverage because he predicted this mess years ago and has been right. If you are wondering the Campaign for Liberty was a leader in trying to block the bailout.
ETA: Link to Peter Schiff site: http://www.europac.net/ (Very well-know)

Money Central - Times Online - WBLG: Ten people who predicted the financial meltdown

Ten people who predicted the financial meltdown

"10. Ron Paul - Republican Congressman

Back in September 2003, Mr Paul told a House Financial Services Committee that: “Ironically, by transferring the risk of a widespread mortgage default, the government increases the likelihood of a painful crash in the housing market.

“This is because the special privileges granted to Fannie and Freddie have distorted the housing market by allowing them to attract capital they could not attract under pure market conditions.” Of course, if we are going to give Mr Paul credit, than we should also highlight the efforts of Peter Schiff, his economic advisor and long-time economic hawk."

Only those who aren't voting for Obama didn't care for his answer. And most people didn't even know who or what McCain was referring to so most just thought it just more ramblings from an old man..

Isn't it amazing that only you and about twenty others see the sheer genius that is Ron Paul? Gosh, it's amazing.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I didn't say it did necessarily, sorry to tell you this but there is just as much chance of it being true as there is that it's false. Of course Martin H. Nesbitt could sue the purveyor of this website for slander if it's not true. Maybe if the media minions would do their jobs there wouldn't be a need for the blogosphere...just a thought.

You mean like those crackerjack journalists at Fox News?

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Reading is Fundamental.

Poor Joe. All he wanted was his 15 mins.

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Poor Barack.. he doesn't know how to handle a educated voter who isn't buying his cup of gruel so he mocks average Joe the plumber.

YouTube - Obama Mocks Joe the Plumber, Crowd Laughs

Does the Messiah not know how many plumbers, plumber family members and plumber friends and for that matter any number of blue collar workers in this country he just alienated by mocking this man?

Not very classy...IMO.

P.S.
Joe didn't say he made 250 k, the plumbing business he hopes to buy may very well earn that or more.

MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, and PBS too.

How much lower can Obama go?
This man has NO CLASS at all.

How do I know..I have stated weeks ago that my sons are working to become plumbers (apprenticeship program)

If a plumber works on multi- million dollar houses the company makes a lot.

It is not the little people that can keep a plumber in business, it is the rich people. The ones that pay 5,000 for a toilet seat, 25,000 for hand-painted facuet handles shipped in from Germany. ones that pay for a spa room inside their house.

So, trying to tell a plumber that by taking more of his profits (taxes) and giving them to poorer people will help keep a plumber in jobs is not going to happen.

Probably the same number of scientists and astronomers who have not been very happy with McCain and his mocking the "$3million" projector he has talked about numerous times now. But, that is okay because McCain is your man. And a losing one at that.....

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

It is so amazing that Ron Paul has done interview after interview since the economy has took a major downturn. MORE people are starting to listen and understand.

Another one this morning on CNN.

Ron Paul on CNN "American Morning" 8:24 am ET Today | Campaign for Liberty at the Daily Paul

I will not bore you with all the youtube videos of the past couple of weeks interviews on CNN. FOX, MSNBC, CNBC, etc. Anyone can either google or search on youtube.
Also interviews with Peter Schiff going against other ecomonists are interesting. It is worth the time listening to videos from 2005 ( and earlier) where Schiff was arguing this mess was going to occur.

Obama has twice since fiscal 2006 sought to have taxpayers foot the bill for a new theater projector and other equipment at the Adler Planetarium.
The planetarium's chairman, then and still, is Frank Clark, chief executive of ComEd, a unit of Chicago-based Exelon Energy. He has pledged to raise more than $200,000 for Mr. Obama's run for the White House.

Mocking a obvious earmark for a Obama campaign contributor IMO is justified.
Whereas mocking a plumber who happened to have the audacity to queston you on raising taxes is to show no class.

Ah....you believe the polls.....keep drinking the koolaid lol!

Obama is right when he says he doesn't know any plumbers making $250K annually. I sure don't.

And as far as Frank Clark being a supporter, all I can say is, "Go Obama!"

Just for sh*ts and giggles, here's the unedited speech. He's mocking McCain, not Joe Sixpack Plumber.

YouTube - Obama Mocks Joe the Plumber.....NOT!!! what really happend?

Maureen

Plain and simple for you and Obama.....Joe would like to better himself and buy the plumbing business he works for but by doing so has the potential of putting him in 250k tax bracket. Why should Joe or anyone else try to better themselves only to have to Obama take more in taxes to spread it around to people who don't work hard to achieve the same level of success as Joe or others like him?

Obviously, the liberals can't do simple math. But I guess if you libs love socialism then have at him. Pitiful. Just pitiful.

My opinion is JUST AS GOOD AS YOURS. My knowledge does not come from polls. I am an EDUCATED voter because I choose to take the time to look at issues and policies myself. I don't depend on blogs.

And, in case you haven't noticed it...YOU and your cronies are the only ones who have named Senator Obama "The Messiah" You must be the ones drinking some sort of kool-aid. You can mock who you want, doesn't make you anything other than a snarky person.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

Joe doesn't have anywhere near the money to buy the business, as he himself has admitted. Plus, he even owes just short of $2,000.00 in back taxes. I think that if he is worried about the financial situation of this government then he should do his part by paying HIS OWN TAXES.

But, this is a pretty regular tactic for losing party supporters...when you can't convince, try to confuse. You just didn't remember that you are dealing with smart and educated posters here.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

LOL! This must be the only website you go to!

Try typing in "Obama Messiah" on Google. Just for Obama Messiah, there are 2,590,000 links! Then there's "messiah video" "messiah blog" "messiah sattire" messiah parody" messiah complex" -- oh, the list goes on and on.

Maybe you need to do a little more research before you make a blanket statement like the above one!

While there are a cou[;e of main stream sites that address the right's use of this term, there is no one on the left using the terminology to describe Obama.

Oh so you can dish it out but you can’t take it? You and your cronies go out of you way time and again to be sarcastic/snarky every chance you get so please spare me that ridiculous charge.

I don’t depend on the liberal MSM for my information because if I did I’d be brainwashed into voting for Obama. Kind of like what happened to the Germans with the propaganda feed to them by the Nazis.

Obama’s friend Louis Farrakhan said he was the Messiah, I guess that makes him one of our cronies…lol!
YouTube - Louis Farrakhan calls Barack Obama The Messiah

Messiah is a term the Cons use to demean anyone who doesn't drink their particular brand of Bush-backing kool-aid. Oh, wait, that's right...they stuck us with 8 years of him and now want to distance themselves from him because he's such a screw-up. Too bad they didn't realize that before they elected him TWICE.

Personally, when I hear people talk about Obama's supporters in that way, saying things like 'Messiah' and 'Chosen One' it makes me think of a spiteful, petulant, whiny child who's livid that she's not getting her own way like she has for the last eight years.

Maureen

It doesn’t matter if Joe can buy the business or not what matters is his questions/concerns were valid and may apply to countless Americans. My point was Obama shouldn’t mock Joe the plumber because when he does it’s like he mocking much of blue collar America.
Lesson learned by Joe the plumber….thou shalt not offend Obama by asking him a question.... of any kind.

P.S….You also need to remember that you are dealing with smart and educated posters here.

I hardly think Louis farrakhan is on the right.
YouTube - Louis Farrakhan calls Barack Obama The Messiah

Most blue collar workers don't make over a quarter mil. a year. I'm sure it's a valid question for business owners and such. But your average blue collar worker Is just trying to hang on to his mortgage and put food on the table. He isn't spending his time worrying that people making that kind of money might have to pay a small increase in taxes.

__________________
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

I was in construction for 6 years. . .there are lots of plumbing "companies" making $250,000 a year.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

But the dream of a lot of those blue collar workers is to become the business owner. Why work your ass off to become the contractor and owner if the returns won't reflect the time and risk you put into it?

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Joe, the plumber, apparently works in a 2 man operation. It's not very likely that the business nets $250K. It isn't likely that anyone in the construction industry will do well this year.

And, Joe said today, " So today, Joe, who said he makes much less than $250,000, reluctantly admitted Obama would lower his taxes.

"I would, if you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cuts," Wurzelbacher said.

Reality Checking "Joe The Plumber", CBS Evening News: Now Famous Ohio Man Owes Back-Taxes; Was Called By Campaign Officials - CBS News

McCain and Palin will not be talking about Joe anymore.

You need to watch the unedited version of the speech. In no way was Obama mocking Joe, he was mocking John.

Maureen

That's asinine. The brainwashing idea, the Nazi reference...just asinine. Why on earth must a supporter of your opposition be 'brainwashed'? My beliefs are in polar opposition to yours, and Obama is the leader who most closely matches my ideals. McCain and Palin would, in my opinion, be 4 more years of the same downward spiral the Cons have been leading us down for the last 8. I simply can't imagine how anyone could want that, but there you are (literally).

I would gladly have voted for McCain in 2000 (and in hindsight I can't imagine how anyone could still think Bush was a better choice) but he wasn't enough of a Con for the Republicans. Well, take away some of his principles, throw in a bunch of pandering and whaddya know, the old man will do now. My only hope is that, if he wins, he's still the McCain of 2000 and he's just pulling the wool over the Con's eyes. I think the McCain of 2000 would be ashamed of the McCain of 2008.

So where do you get your information that's completely unbiased? Since you're informed rather than brainwashed, please share your source for completely nonpartisan info.

Maureen

Wow.

I know I shouldn't be shocked at this, but I am.

Joe didn't ambush Obama. Obama went to Joe's neighborhood, and Joe, living his life in relative obscurity, asked a legitimate question.

He went from obscurity to fame to target.

And unfortunately, those trying to crucify him don't even have the class to be ashamed of themselves.

NBC is parked outside his house and trying to dig up dirt to discredit him.

For crying out loud, he was just a guy with a question who dared to ponder whether the Messiah's tax plan would be good for him.

He's a guy on the bottom rung with aspirations of climbing the ladder, and the nasty left just wants to slap him right down.

Classy. Really classy.

Show me on this site where any Obama supporter has referred to him as their Messiah. It is just you who are losing and jealous and disappointed who do. And, by the way, I don't do my research on blogs, because I want to be EDUCATED, not semi-entertained.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

Not often very evident here I musty say....

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

I ask this in all seriousness, jeanief... do you really get a lot of satisfaction out of slinging personal insults at conservatives? I hold my beliefs sincerely. I love my children. I'm good to my dog. We're not bad people. We just have a different opinion about what will be best for our nation. I'm not jealous. I am educated. Sometimes education will lead someone to a different conclusion because there is so much more to an opinion than just knowledge.

And it was McCain that decided to bring up Joe over and over and over again thus he is the one who caused the invasion of Joe's privacy not Obama. Obama was very cordial and answered Joe's question and Joe seemed ok, maybe not with the answer, but with the effort and consideration Obama put forth in answering it. UNTIL McCain choose to sic the media on him. And blame it on Obama.

Classy, really classy!

How disingenuous. He asked a question. Obama answered it.

That's all it was, except conservative blogs focused on Obama's answers. Which is fair. It was his answer, after all.

But the McCain campaign ramped it up. Joe Six-Pack had to move over to make room for Joe the Plumber. McCain mentioned him 20 times during the debate and repeatedly harked back to him during his subsequent campaign rallies. McCain brought him up repeatedly, and used his full name.

If anyone is to blame for the light being shown on "Joe the Plumber," it is the Republicans. Like it or not, they made him an issue.

And to bemoan the fact that subsequent factchecking reveals that "Joe the Plumber" is mythical, and that the real guy doesn't really represent what the McCain campaign said he does, is purely the responsibility of that campaign.

Who is to blame for Joe being under the media spotlight?

McCain.

Republicans who try to pin this debacle on the Democrats when it was the Republicans that made him a media star?

Classy. Really classy.

And you didnt just write "the nasty left" in your post above. Pot meet kettle.

And what are you trying to imply here? I hope it isn't that supporters of Obama are uneducated. But it does come off that way.

You know, you should really calm down and grow up a bit. More like a 4th or 5th grader slinging insults. I bet your blood pressure shoots thru the roof when you're posting on here. You sound like such an angry person. It's just a website.

And, for the record, you didn't say only here on this website. You said 'you and your cronies are the only ones who have named Obama the Messiah", like we invented it, which, by the way, is wrong because as my other thread states there's millions of websites with Obama the Messiah on them.

shark, the entire left isn't nasty, but there is an element that is over the top. There are nasties on the right, as well. It's the nasty element of the left to which I was referring.

And no, danny, that wasn't what I was trying to imply. If you'll look above, jeanief said conservaties were jealous losers, and came right out said that it was evident that she was not dealing with smart, educated posters.

I was refuting her statement. I'm educated, thanks. I just happen to have come to a different conclusion about the issues.

For all of those who think that the left is over-the-top in embracing Barack Obama as the "messiah," I want to point out a few things.

Only a few short months ago, there was a slug fest on this board between Obama supporters and Clinton supporters. Do you really think that we would have debated so ferociously which was the best candidate if we saw Obama as ordained?

Also, you must also recognize that Obama has also been labeled the "anti-Christ" by some opponents. An Antichrist Obama in McCain Ad? - TIME

Just so its clear, what angers those of us, or at least me, about the "messiah" label being pasted upon Obama is the implied insult that we don't care about his positions, and we are following him through some blind faith. (Can I also just say, I think that this really demeans people of faith, because it seems to equate faith with stupidity and unquestioning loyalty. YMMV, though.)

As a Hillary supporter and now Obama booster, I'm find remarks about Obama being embraced because he is the Messiah nothing less than insulting. I didn't make my choice based upon star quality. For heaven's sake, I supported Kerry.

Anyway, I guess I have to ask what you are trying to accomplish with these statements. You can have only two real purposes to me: You are trying to demean the other side, or you are trying to persuade undecided voters.

On the latter, I think your labeling of Obama as "The Messiah" has fail written all over it. It has nothing to do with positions or policies.

If it is the former, and you are trying to insult Obama supporters, well yay, you have succeeded. Where this gets you anywhere, I don't know. But if you are happy in your little bubble where this matters to you, good for you. You scored a hit, because I am insulted. (Actually, not so insulted. More than a little befuddled though. I recognize the intent to insult. But I don't see where the "messiah" attack really addresses the differences between the two candidates on more fundamental issues. As said during a famous debate "Where's the beef?").

But I'll live with your insults as long as my guy wins in the end.

I totally agree with you dannyboy. I am an Obama supporter and have never referred to him as the Messiah, I too only hear it coming from Republicans mocking Obama. It's amazing that when we believe in our candidate we are either brainwashed, not educated, drinking the "koolaid" or whatever they come up with. I am an educated mother of 3 and my DH works very hard to support our family. We send our 2 youngest kids to a private school which we pay for, we have a DS who just started college and we pay for that. I am VERY proud to say I support Obama for president and am sick or being insulted because I do.

__________________
Mom to Jake, Zach & Meghan
SJCC STREAKS FOOTBALL!!
CLEVELAND BROWNS FOOTBALL!

danny, you may not fall into that camp, but there are some who react that way to him. I know a couple IRL who really gushed about him before anything was really known about Obama, all because he is such a gifted speaker. Back after the 04 convention when he spoke - giving a speech that contained very little that anyone could disagree with because it was more of a generic feel-good speech than a speech about positions, well... I have a couple of friends - the IRL kind - who decided after that speech that Obama was the one to lead the Democrats back to power.

They didn't know anything about his positions, his record, or his history. But they found his verbage riveting and, well, it was like they had a crush on him or something, and these were a couple of straight white males!

So you may not fit demorgaphics that are being referenced here, and if you don't, the comments aren't aimed at you. They're intended to make uncomfortable those who *do* fall into that camp.

And it's unrealistic to assume that those of us on the other side aren't fully aware that but for the 10% or so who *do* fawn over him in that way, McCain would be ahead in the polls right now. Obama is just up 2% and that's within the margin of error.

And before anyone brings it up, yes I know there is a percentage that will vote for him just because he's black. And a percentage who won't vote for him because he's black. And some who will vote Republican because of Palin, and some who will not vote Republican because they think Palin was just a stunt and they're not going to fall for it.

All of those things are true, just as it's true that but for that percentage who is just enamored over the idea that they're part of some ground breaking diversity day if they vote for the golden tongued guy whose positions they can't really even articulate, other than to say that he's for the common man...

As if John McCain *isn't* for every American as well.

If the shoe doesn't fit your foot, don't let yourself be insulted. I've yet to see anyone say that every Obama supporter embraces him for identical reasons.

ANYONE who comprehends basic ecomonics is bothered by that answer!

Why??

(I only really wanted to ask "why," but I'm getting a prompt that I need to have a ten character response, so I added this postscript. My question is the same though).

Why?

A small read but very well explains what is so "wrong" with the idea of socilism
Free Agency Rules: What?s wrong with Socialism?

"The key to understanding Economics and their theories is the understanding of human nature and not the understanding of mathematical theories of “economic equilibrium and the static state.”

The main failure of Socialism is the elimination of the need for the entrepreneurial function. With Socialism the productive are punished and the non-productive are rewarded. This is the main reason why all Socialism and Communism systems will always fail. It is the worst form of discrimination, it is discrimination based upon productivity. When all are paid whether they work or not, too many will choose to not work. We see it everyday in our welfare system. Why work for ten dollars an hour, when you can stay at home and get by on the sweat of others brows?"

...."It is natural for people to hope to “get ahead” or to have a more “pleasurable” life, one of leisure if you will. They do this by working hard to save for their future. When under Socialism they find that any extra work goes to someone else, they tend to do just enough to get by."....

"True freedom requires both social and economic freedom. Socialism is economic force. You are forced to work partly for your neighbor without just or fair compensation. Those that get ahead are punished with a fine or fee we sometimes call a “progressive tax.”"

The best explanation is an example.



Hawaii ending universal child health care


In other words... when you enact a system whereby people can receive rewards without positioning themselves to be in a position due to hard work, determination, effort, or goal-setting, people will get to that reward 'as the crow flies'. Don't pass go - go straight to the perk. Don't make it happen if someone else will make it happen for you.

I don't doubt the hearts of the liberals who want all the world to have health care for free. I really don't. But the unintended consequences of orchestrating such a system will be so heavy that they will cause more problems than our current system has.

That's why.

To add what forrestlayne said. . .

This is a coupon board, so it's safe to assume that most posters on here use coupons rebates, etc.

Imagine all you do to track down deals. . .cutting coupons, trading them, filling out rebate forms, saving receipts, etc. Now when you go to the grocery store and you save $100 with coupons, the store is going to take a portion of YOUR savings, the fruits of YOUR labor, and "spread it around" to those that don't coupon. It's only fair. . .right? And $100 dollars is a lot of savings, so anything over $75 we're going to take even a bigger percentage. . . only fair right? And guess what else? The grocery store is going to have to develop a new department and have people that oversee and administer this new "sharing your wealth" thing.

Apply that same analogy to Obama's corporate taxes. . .and guess what? You're going to go to the grocery store across the street that doesn't take your savings to "share the wealth" or takes a lower percentage.

It always amazes me how people can bitch and moan about E-bay eating away at their profits with higher seller fees, etc. They aren't going to be able to continue to sell there. . .they will have to look for alternatives. . .Craiglist, etc.

It's the same basic economics!!!!

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Excellent analogy!
Copying this one!

I guess I approach all this from a Christian perspective:

1) The Bible is pretty clear that those who don't work shouldn't eat.

2) The Bible is also pretty clear that when the rich man failed to show kindness to Lazarus and share with him, the rich man was in bad shape with God.

The difference? Ability. Lazarus wasn't just a beggar - he was covered in sores and obviously in ill health.

I think we need to have high expectations for those who *can*, and compassionate assistance for those who *can't*. It's really pretty simple.

I had a religious raising, and I carried away with me two things:

1) Support your brother; and

2) Don't stone a sister for crimes that you commit yourself.

On supporting a brother, I was taught more than anything in my faith, "brotherly love." I was taught that bad things happen to good people, and it is my responsibility to recognize my good fortune and make things better for the less fortunate.

On not stoning a sister, I'm making a direct reference about casting the first stone. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

All told, I may not adhere by my religion of birth in all respects, with is Catholic, but to the extent that it taught me to embrace my brother and to not cast stones when I'm not without free from questioning, I've carried those lessons with me.

The lessons that you take from your religion just aren't mine. You apparently give supremacy to text that those who don't work shouldn't eat and you interpret the scripture regarding Lazarus as saying that you should be charitable to those who have ability.

Between my lessons, which are helping the less fortunate and not stoning people when you yourself are not guilt free, and yours, which are that "those who don't work shouldn't eat," and being charitable to those who are able, I think my positions embrace yours. I don't think that yours embrace mine.

I don't want to be harsh or debate theology, but to the extent that your Christianity informs your viewpoint of politics doesn't impact mine. I carry different messages, and frankly, I'm a whole lot more comfortable with mine. I have a hard time believing that Christ, who embraced the beggars and the thieves and the prostitutes, would say that you should cast your vote based upon your personal economics because "those who don't work, shouldn't eat," and Lazarus had ability.