My coments on the passing of 8 in California.....

No taxation without representation.....Trust me, gays do NOT want your "christian" marriage.
My partner and I both work and pay taxes, but we have NO representation. We pay more than twice what a married couple pays, but our government has forgotten about us.
We can be fired and even told we are being fired because we are gay, and there is nothing we can do about it.
We pay twice as much in insurance premiums because we do not have the same rights as married couples.
Trust me though, we do not want anything to do with your "sacred marriage" We just want the same rights. I would NEVER get married in a church. Many christians have been such bigots, and hypocrites, I do not want MY beautiful relationship associated with such HATE.

And for the wonderful African Americans that came out to support and vote for Obama, but forgot about the gays......remember this, it wasnt too long ago these conservative christians fought to ban multiracial marriage. They said it too would be an "abomination" to their god and would ruin the "sanctity of marriage" Please NEVER FORGET that hate and see they are doing it again to another group of people.
What WOULD have happened if people were allowed to vote on desegregation??? Discrimination and hate should NOT be voted on.

Amendment 2 passed here in FL too It cements it in to the state constitution now. I'm sorry people are so freaking homophobic that they can't see the bigger picture.

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Agreed.
Hopefully, this issue will go to the SCOTUS in the next few years.

On a different note - what do you think about the Arkansas adoption results? Crazy. So sad to think kids in need of love and family bonding will suffer, because we all know know heterosexual parents are more likely to produce normal, heterosexual kids. (funny)

What was the Arkansas adoption thing? I missed that one. Did they actually ban gays from adopting??

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

LOL, Now that I think about it, MY parents are heterosexual too!!! Maybe if I was raised by gays.....

I think there are too many unwanted, abused and neglected children. This is just going to hurt them. My partner and I raised two wonderful boys. Our youngest is a Jr in High School. They have both turned out fine. As long as a parent loves and takes good care of the child, that should be all that matters.

Basically. Now, you can't adopt or foster a child in Arkansas if you aren't married. Gays in Arkansas can't marry. (such an unfortunate coincidence - NOT)

Pretty nifty work around, huh

Wow! How sad. I feel truly sorry for anyone affected by this. It's a shame people in the country are still so bigoted towards gays. I feel all gay couples should be afforded the same rights as hetrosexual couples. Sad!!

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Yes. It's a sad joke from a backwards state, whose education sucks up the bottom and whose poverty rate is among the highest and who also profess an anti abortion stance. An odd and ironic combination.

The Arkansas SC ruled a ban on homosexual foster and adoption was unconstitutional because there was no scientific correlation between the health, welfare, and safety of foster children and the blanket exclusion of any individual who is a homosexual or who resides in a household with a homosexual.

So, instead of actually looking at the research and realizing kids need love and family and dont' care what people do in bed, the goofs now have a ban on anyone "cohabiting " outside of mariage. And, here's the amazingly sad thing that has sprung from this odd hatred towards a particular group of people - if I had a child I wanted my sister to foster or adopt and she is living with someone, my child couldn't go there. Oh yes, better to have my child sucked into a foster care system of professed heterosexuals rather than risk it on the very unlikely chance a gay male or female might want to foster or adopt a child that no one wants who in need of love and family and injure it.

What a backwards thought process ... And it passed ....

Keep in mind that this is the same state that Huckabee ran for 8 years. Give them sometime to get their **** back together after having "Huck" in charge...

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Ok. . .I think that sucks! Most of the gays I know are lesbians that already have children, Are we going to start removing their children from their homes?! I just want to remind anybody posting in this thread. . . Obama/Biden are openly against gay marriage. If you voted for them you are promoting this ideology. Just because somebody is a minority in one group doesn't mean they support ALL minorities!I am a registered independent but I am fiscally consevative, so I frequently vote Republican. However, I support any citzens right, as a consenting adult, to do whatever they like. To me, it is about personal freedom! Don't be fooled into thinking that Dems are for minorities. . . just sayin. If you are gay, you are truly better off with libertarians or constitutionalists that support individual freedoms.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Well it might be a little off topic, however this is a serious personal issue with me. I firmly believe that Gay people deserve all the same human rights as everyone. I totally feel gay marriages should be allowed in all states. I believe that gay people should be allowed to have kids and raise them, or if they choose to adopt whatever. What truly matters most is that gay people love each other like anyone else which is perfectly normal and more important it does not matter if a child has 2 mommies or 2 daddies, all that matters is that their is love.. I still cannot believe it 2008 and some people will not recognize or make it legal for gay people to marry, its also a issue about having the next ok kin, your marriage partner to make important health decisions god forbid. Hopefully one day more people will be more accepting as they should be... Peace...Catherine

Sounds like you're the one filled with hate so it's likely that your beautiful relationship is affected.

You're ranting to the choir on this board but if you really want to change the Christian mind, lighten up. You catch more flies with honey than with hate and insulting Christians isn't going to help your cause. Bigotry and hypocrisy isn't limited to Christianity.

Your own post is evidence of that!

You do know that Obama/Biden don't support what you are saying, right? I'm just bringing this up because you often post about how perfect they are. I guess you just found the first thing that you don't agree with them on.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

First of all, so were McCain and Palin, so neither party had a ideal position if you favor gay marriage. However, Obama favors civil unions, whereas McCain waffled on that. Obama's position, while not ideal, was far better for gays than McCain's was. McCain openly supported Prop 8; Obama did not. As far as I'm concerned, they're both wrong on gay marriage, but Obama inches closer to an acceptable position.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I don't think the state should be involved in "marriage" at all. Everyone, straight or gay, should only get a "civil union" certificate from the state. If you want to get married, go to a church and get some certificate from them AND the civil union certificate from the state.

Marriage has religious overtones, so you don't think gays should be allowed to marry? Fine, then the state shouldn't "marry" anyone. You can't share your toys with the other children, NO ONE gets to play with them.

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Hambirg, Yes sadly I know that Obama and Biden are againist gay marriages, I have known that for a long time. I sincerely hope they will change this mind hopefully one day. I guess in the candidate I voted for, I cannot have everything, this does make me sad, but again I know I made the right choice to whom I voted for and again perhaps one day m they too will think further about the issue of Gay Marriages and change their minds... Peace to all.. Catherine

I agree.

Also it's obvious that it wasn't just 'Christians' who voted for this. However, I guess when the majority votes on an issue that deals with the homosexual agenda, everyone that voted this way is labeled 'Christians'. But isn't this the same California that was a Blue state and went for Obama in the election? I thought it was conservatives who were the only ones who weren't 'openminded'??

It wasn't obvious to me. If it was not Christians then who was it?

Are you saying that people who are Jewish, Muslim, atheists do not have moral values? Now don't go saying that I said people who voted against it are not moral. I'm just saying that most people say that the Christian argument is that it is morally wrong to be in a homosexual relationship.

Please don't speak for atheists. We don't believe in your god nor those silly rules about who can be with whom.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I wasn't speaking FOR atheists. I read online where it wasn't just 'Christians' who voted for the Amendment. Atheists also voted for the amendment. Obviously some atheists believe in 'those silly rules' as you call them.

I'm sorry you don't believe in our God, but I guess you don't want my pity, do you?

Or maybe they're just homophobic?

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Umm? Do those silly rules also apply to the 10 Commandments, you know Thou shall NOT KILL, etc...???

cite your source please. Prop 8 is based on xtian fear and hatred of gays. As was the law that just passed in Arkansas, Alabama and the existing one in Florida.

No, but you certainly have mine.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Do you really need the bible to tell you murder is wrong?

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Maybe most of the people you know.

Most of the people I know would say that that is the un-Christian, homophobic and hateful argument

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Reading is Fundamental.

For those who believe in the New Testament---the Ten Commandments are superceded by "Love thy Neighbor as thy self".

I'm just saying

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I agree with this. It's how it is done in Germany. I'm not sure how the government ever got messed up in marriage to begin with. Just another example of big intrusive government.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

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What is the big deal with gay people getting married? I know that it has been said that it will destroy traditional marraige and that the family will be destroyed blah blah blah.

Gay marraige was legal for a few months in California and my sisters marraige has not suffered at all. She and my BIL are still married happily and their kids are still living okay.

What exactly will happen if we allow people who love each other to be with each other? Will it bring more love to the planet? Is that what people are afraid of? It certainly seems so.

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with gay people being allowed the same rights as all others. They most certainly deserve all the same rights all American or anyone living in any place of the world does plain and simple. In personal views Gays should be legally allowed to get married anywhere they choose just like the rest of us were allowed... Peace to all... Catherine

It was people of many DIFFERENT religions, people with no religion at all, people with brown hair, people with blonde hair, people with dyed purple hair. All kinds of people from all walks of life voted, not just Christians. Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, Catholic, Wiccan, all kinds of voters.

It should be obvious to anyone that California is one of the most, if not the VERY most, liberal state in the entire USA and they voted their beliefs. Do you seriously think that the huge state of California contains only Christians and they control that state? LOL at the absurdity!

There are many reasons people vote against something, not just religious reasons, and obviously, the people of California don't approve of gay marriage. The majority of the people, not just the Christian demographic.

I live in CA and voted no on 8 as did my dh and 21 year old son. None of us are gay but we all thought it was the right thing to do. Even my 11 and 12 year olds could not understand why someone would stop two people from being able to get married. The last few months we have seen in the paper many gay couples that have been together for 20, 30, 40+ years getting married. How wonderful for them. How can anyone tell them they have no right to be married.

Some of you have asked who voted for it. I think a lot of the yes votes were from religious people. I saw churches with yes on 8 signs, and also my religious friends voted yes. I also think the commercials for 8 got people scared. It seems like all the yes on 8 ads were geared to kid and school. They said the kids would learn all kinds of things in school about gay marriage. Give me a break. Our teachers teach the kids reading and writing not marraige. I think the ads were very, very misleading but people fell for it.

I voted based on my religious background.
However, respecting that some don't have that particular foundation to base their decision on...

If you're not going to discriminate based on "sexual orientation", then you must not discriminate against any of the following. Bestiality, pedophile, necrophilia., exhibitionism, fetishism, frotteurism, masochism, sadism, transvestitism, voyeurism. If you discriminate against any of these, you're a hypocrite. These "sexual orientations" are generally known as "paraphilias", and are mental disorders - just like homosexuality was until 1973.
reference ~ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition, American Psychiatric Association, 1994.

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I draw the line at one place.
I'm sure EVERYONE here on this post would need to draw the line at some point in that list of above mentioned disorders. Which group is the next group to say... "ohhhh we're just misunderstood, it's not sexual deivance. We deserve the pursuit of happiness without discrimination."

Hypocrisy- seems it's a unilateral offense

X

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Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

There's always gotta be some assmuppet that comes along and tries to equate homosexuality with kiddie diddling, screwing the family dog, or defiling the dead. Congratulations you win the moron award this time!

If you can't see the difference between what consenting adults do behind closed doors and child molestation you need serious help.

It's not hypocrisy, it's common sense.


Oh and some of those thing...

Nothing wrong with those either.....consenting adults and all....

.

So they changed their minds back in 1973 and you still think it's a valid argument to bring up? Jeez, I wasn't even born then. Next time you get a fever maybe you can try blood-letting (lots of it)

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Sorry Xhausted1 but relating sexual orientations to bestiality, pedophile's or necrophilia, its not and I repeat no way near what we are talking about which is being discriminated for people whom are gay and whom choose and so deserve to be legally married. Which affords them as all the rest of us the same benefits of a union legal marriage.. As far as such of the other items, you mentioned those are considered different sexual orientations, which again when done is the privacy of your owm home, between two adults is no one's business, never should be. I truly cannot understand how you would think some of terms you mentioned could be connected... If these are your personal beliefs, then I am sad for you.... Catherine

THIS is a perfect example of why so many people oppose gay marriage. Their opposition has NOTHING to do with religion, God, or The Holy Bible. It's because they believe that homosexuality is a perversion and they're tired of being told that it's not. They fear that sanctioning gay marriage will open the door to complete degeneration. They agree with Xhausted1 that the next group will say "Oh, we're just misunderstood, it's not sexual deivance. We deserve the pursuit of happiness without discrimination, too". They think that America's morals are already in the toilet and it will only get worse if they don't draw the line. They draw the line much sooner anyway than the anything goes crowd and are afraid that it'll be a case of 'give them an inch and they'll take a mile'. They're afraid that society will develop the attitude that ANY perversion is fine and they don't want to raise their families in that kind of world. They think that sanctioning gay marriage will eventually lead to any perversion or sexual deviation becoming socially acceptable under the attitude of "Nothing wrong with it, consenting adults and all".

After reading Jenh22's post, it seems their fears have some validity!

.

Only to homophobes....

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Have the courage to be yourself.

opaldancing can I be so bold and ask you are you againist gay marriage, if so what do you base your personal decision on, tia... Catherine

I am guessing, but I wonder how far off base I might be, but I think all of this propaganda and what waas voted on, and passed, was not started by Christian's, persay.

My best guess would be the backers of this entire movement to ban, is somewhere in the background funded by the big insurance agencies in the states that it was an issue.


Something to consider.

And THIS is a perfect example of why you (personal you) will never be able to change anyone's mind about anything or bring them around to your point of view. You aren't capable of discussing ANY subject without insulting the people who hold an opposing view. I saw you do it DOZENS of times in regard to political candidates. Instead of refuting posts in a reasonable manner, you dart in and call the poster a name.

In this case, your insult isn't even accurate! But then again, it rarely is! LOL.

The definition of a homophobe is a person who hates or fears homosexual people. The people I mentioned don't hate or fear homosexual people. They don't care what homosexuals do in the privacy of their homes. They hate and fear that society itself will furthur degenerate. Their standards of 'decent' behavior is far different from your's and they don't want their children raised in a society that sanctions sexual perversion. They believe that sanctioning gay marriage is a step in that direction and that worse will follow.

Your post proved that their fears aren't unfounded!

You don't have to agree with them but if you want to change their minds, you HAVE to be able to understand them. You have to be able to convince them otherwise and you aren't capable of that. You're only capable of petty insults that don't even apply!

And your post just proved that their fears aren't unfounded! You're a lousy advocate for your cause.

.

But, Opal, that is her belief.

She believes that those types of sexual behaviours are not a perversion.


What is the difference in what you are telling her to do?

I do agree with you, however, that the attacks are over the top.

The difference is that she wants to change people's minds so that gay marriage will become legal. I have no interest in changing either side's mind about it.

Homosexuality is not a disorder, any more than being blue-eyed is. I think that's the fundamental difference between people with your beliefs and people with mine. You think there's something wrong about homosexuality, that it's deviant, maybe even that it's "fixable."

I don't.

I guess one day God will judge who was right.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Something a little off topic but I heard the other day. . .can't remember what state it was coming out of though. What about marriage between more then two people? If gay marriage is adopted will polygamy soon follow?

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Why do they fear what consenting adults do behind closed doors? The first 3 are completely private and a majority of the time practiced between hetero married couples. The last, transvestism...why should anyone care how someone else dresses? (as long as the important bits are covered.)

And none of those things lead to a sexual affair with fluffy the cat.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

wow, the fear mongering and absolute HATRED toward gays always astonishes me. And the excuses that go along w/ it - that people really subscribe to that bullsh!t, is just disgusting. How incredibly sad and pathetic that you would equate being gay with being a pedophile, necrophiliac, etc.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Funny, that's the same thing people used to say about mixed marriages. In fact it used be to compared to bestiality.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Most reports are talking about the black and latino votes being the majority that allowed the ban to pass.

Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban - washingtonpost.com
"Seven in 10 African Americans who went to the polls voted yes on Proposition 8,"
"according to exit polls. Fifty-three percent of Latinos also backed Proposition 8, overcoming the bare majority of white Californians who voted to let the court ruling stand"

I read that. I was very embarrassed by that, but it still goes back to religion - both groups are notoriously religious and the scare tactics from various churches apparently worked very well. Why someone would follow a god who hated its own is beyond me.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I have no idea how the less than 20 percent of the religious population voted on this issue, nor am I commenting on their moral values or lack thereof. I do feel safe in saying that with the religious population of this country being at least 80 percent Christian that the votes that sank this were predominately Christian. Also the drive to push for it's defeat was Christian backed. So to say that it was not just the Christians is disingenuous.

I guess at the end of the day the whole issue comes down to a simple matter of dignity. From what I've heard from those opposed to it, they really don't have any idea what dignity really is - they don't know how dignity feels so they cannot grasp the desire to feel dignified. They will say they do, and they probably honestly believe they do, but they don't. Dignity is inner strength, compassion and courage. Bigotry is weakness, anger, fear, and ignorance.

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I guess one could say that polygamy is a choice and homosexuality isn't. Really the only problem I have with it, is the fact that the "wives" are usually underage when they wed. I wonder how much of a choice these women really have.

But again, I think the government should stay out of it. (as long as we're talking about consenting adults)

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

I haven't read all the posts here, and didn't even want to get in on this one, but, ah, what the heck, right??? LOL.

Anyway, there was a lawyer talking about the different bills and propositions being voted on all over the country. The same sex marriage was one of them. It was mentioned that if marriage is not defined as one man and one woman, then why NOT define it as several husbands (could you imagine????) or several wives, and the list went on. He also mentioned that things like this are put on the ballot to get people out to vote on the election itself. Don't care to vote for the president, but, by golly, let me get in there and try to define marriage. I guess it works, tho, or they wouldn't do it.

My personal take on it: Homosexuality is in the brain, just like Heterosexuality. Yes, you can try to supress it, but, that would be like a "straight" person trying to have sex with a person of the same gender. Should they be allowed to marry?? I don't know, really, and don't think I care. The problem I have with it is when it is on TV or in public, and the kids start asking questions about it. How do you explain this to little ones? I mean heterosexual relationships are hard enough for them to grasp, but, when they see two men or two women getting married or passionately kissing, it's just not the norm to a heterosexual child.

Gays don't bother me, neither do straight people who have a different sex life....swingers, orgy people, hey, whatever....as long as it isn't illegal, whatever turns you on basically.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Darn, wish I would have read this before I posted.....in my other post I spoke of a lawyer who said stuff like this gets put on the ballot to draw the voters to the polls.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I respect your "don't". We're different.

Sorry for the hijack based solely on Religion. I had come on this thread to discuss NON-Religous reasons the voting may have gone as it did.
If you're not Tammy, you can stop reading for now.. This crosses over to the religious part of her post and I need to address it separately from the "non-religion based" parts of what I'm posting.

Now for your eyes only and only because your last line needed addressing.
because you mentioned God in your post I would like to know what Religious affliation along with what version of the Bible you personally prefer. I'm Southern Baptist and primarily read the King James Version of the Bible or other translations if I want to clarify during study.

New Testament - Romans 1:18-32
I encourage you to read all of it*, however, three times during that passage it states God takes action.
V. 24 - God gave them over in the sinful desires
V. 26 - God gave them over to shameful lusts
V.28 - Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

reading on into chapter 2 it states
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.


{{me talking again}}
Most Christianity teaches you want God closer to you. You want to be in His protective hand. Those verses speak of an action taking place of "giving them over". In a literal sense, when you "give something over" like handing money over to pay for something you "give it over" then withdraw your hand.

All that to say, reading that passage allows you to skip the wait for "Guess we'll see on Judgement Day" .
Either you're moving toward Him or Away from Him.
And before you try and paint me as a Holier Than Attitude. Sin is Sin. Big or Little, One sin is equal to another sin. My issues with Anger, Pride, and Complacency are in His eyes equal to every other sin listed in the Bible.

X
Again apologizing for taking this to the religious side with one individual instead of staying on track with the orginal theme.

Romans 1:26
*26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

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Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

Some states have laws about the kind of sex you can have:


http://www.weirdsexlaws.com/laws.php?Category_ID=5

How do they enforce these??? LMAO.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I know I'm not Tammy. I just wanted to say that I think you religious beliefs are a far more valid argument than necrophilia. I can respect that they are your beliefs even though I disagree with it. When you equate homosexuality with bestiality, pedophilia, ect. you lose all credibility.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

The "norm" to a child is whatever you accept as the "norm". If they ask, you say they love each other, whether it's a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. The answer is the same. Things don't have to be complicated when talking to kids. Just tell them the truth. If you aren't bothered by they won't be bothered by it.

I don't think this was the case (but I really don't know) because gay couples can get the benifits of their partner in the work place in CA.

It actually is the norm to my kids. they've seen men and women kiss or cross dress or whatever and don't blink an eye. When they were younger, I told them that some people like men, some like women and as long as everyone is happy who cares? They seriously don't blink an eye when they see pda on tv btw gays or heteros now.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Yep, sin is sin---and within Romans it also talks about those who judge, but also commit sin. I'm pretty sure that you fall in this category m'dear!
Along with the issues of Anger, Pride, and Complacency--might I also suggest you add hypocrit?

I despise the argument of "love the sinner, hate the sin". That's like saying to a hetero---I love YOU, but hate the fact that you are heterosexual. Sexuality is not something a person "decides". They are who they are! It's not a disease or illnes to be cured....how freaking hard is that to grasp? I mean really?? Does anyone believe for one minute that a person chooses to be "different" to the point that they are ostracized? or discriminated against? or beaten?

I, personally, know that I'm not perfect. I know that there have been choices I made that were the wrong choices. I know that I will have to answer for those decisions that were sinful. But, I do not think that what gender you find attractive and/or fall in love with is a decision! Do you think God is going to make AAs answer for their "blackness"? NO???? Then why would you think God would make anyone answer for their "gayness"!?!?!?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

When my oldest was about 6 or 7 he came home asking what gay meant. He heard it on the playground and wanted to know what it was. I was not ready to explain this to him so I told him it meant happy. He would bring it up again and I would say the same thing or I don't know. He must of thought his mom didn't know anything. LOL In my mind I didn't want to have a sex talk with him yet. Finally after putting him off for about a year I got up the courage and started out by telling him that most of the time a man loves a woman and a woman loves a man. But sometimes a man loves a man and a woman loves a woman. He said ok, and went out to play. That was all he wanted to know. I didn't have to go into sex for both, that was not what he wanted. I felt so dumb. So when my youngest were maybe 4 they asked the same thing. This time I didn't put them off, but told them the same thing I had told their big brother. It was easy and worked out just like it did the first time. Most kids do not want or need a lot of information.

I didn't know that, but I still think it is a fair question. We are still talking about consenting adults and what they do in the privacy of their own home.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

In your anger, You can suggest anything you want to.
I said what I did based on Galations 6:1-10. Christians can confront other Christians in love.
The lesson I see in that passage is that
1. You can confront a sinner (remember we're all sinners - so I can be approached as well with the sin in my life.)
2. We are to share the convictions based on Biblical principles (Pray before you do this)
3. Use Compassion - love not vengence (I'm not out committing hate crimes, I used the power of a vote)
4. Consistency - You offer support and accoutablility because as Christians we all are working towards a closer walk with God.

You said I despise the argument of "love the sinner, hate the sin".
God does "love the sinner and hate the sin." Where would we all be without that amazing grace?

I'm not asking you to believe as I do.
I have made a choice for myself and my household.

X

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Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

It's because Christians believe that the Holy Bible is the word of God and the Bible specifically condemns homosexuality. The Bible does not condemn anyone for the color of their skin and there'd be no need to answer for something that a person can't change, anyway. The Bible doesn't say that one race or skin color is preferable to another or that they'd be any need to change skin tone. The Bible is concerned with human actions and spirituality. The Christian position is that while homosexual orientation may not be a choice and even if impossible to change, acting on homosexual desires IS a choice and a sin. Christians don't believe that "God would make anyone answer for their "gayness". Christians believe that God will make someone answer for giving in to homosexual desires.

HTH!

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

I understand what you are trying to say, but the argument would be homosexuality isn't a choice and neither is heterosexuality. There are many studies that support the idea that humans are not meant to be mongomous. Just because society wants to define "marriage" as a monogomous relationship doesn't make that anymore valid.

Look, the truth of the matter is that marriage is a difficult term to define. From an anthropological standpoint it is an ethnocentric idea and is determined by the society that defines it. It falls under that "cultural relativism" umbrella. I'm not a big fan of cultural relativism, but if you look at it from that perspective then it makes sense that it is determined by a vote of the people defining it. And, according to Prop 8 the people of California are not ready to define it in another way.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I just googled "do all versions of the Bible condemn homosexuality?", and it sounds like it's a question of interpretation.

I have raised my children to be tolerant. My 7yo dd understands what "gay" is, in the simplest of terms. It was never an issue here.

I cannot for the life of me imagine loving any of my children any less, or condemning their choice, should they grow up to be gay. I cannot imagine judging anyone because they love someone of the same sex.

To each his own.

As Dr. James M. Kauffman asked:

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

and

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -- Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Anger? Where did you get anger?
I made an observation. Not out of anger--just an observation.

There is a fine line btwn confrontation in love and hypocritical.
For instance--my best friend was dating a married man. I told her that I didn't approve because I would hate to be the wife that was cheated on. I told her I still loved her, and she is my bestest friend, but I couldn't be supportive of her decision--because what she was doing was hurting other people. I would not have an affair with a married man, nor would I "cheat" on my husband. She made a choice.

But....no one chooses to be homosexual, just like no one chooses to be heterosexual. Just like no one has a choice of skin color, eye color, height, hair color, etc. True you can "alter" your eye and hair color--you can even alter your skin color to some extent---but underneath, you have what God gave you. No one screams from the rooftops that heterosexuals should suppress their natural sexual drives....why should homosexuals be subjected to any dfferent expectation

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I really don't think it is a question of tolerance at all. I really don't care if gays are allowed to marry or not. BUT "marriage" has a secular and a sacred definition in this country. And I think alot of people that voted on Prop 8 saw it as voting on the "sacred" definition. If it was truly about just the secular definition and the civil rights that go along with marriage, then civil unions for all would be acceptable. But that is not what the push for gay marriage seems to be about. The agenda is to redefine the sacred definition of it. All the bible debating, etc. just reaffirms that.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

God Hates Shrimp
Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Why stop at protesting gay marriage? Bring all of God's law unto the heathens and the sodomites. We call upon all Christians to join the crusade against Long John Silver's and Red Lobster. Yea, even Popeye's shall be cleansed. The name of Bubba shall be anathema. We must stop the unbelievers from destroying the sanctity of our restaurants.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

Leviticus 11:9-12
Deuteronomy 14:9-10

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Get Involved!
http://musicrising.org/ * http://one.org/ * www.data.org * www.amnestyusa.org

So, civil unions/domestic partnerships and all of the rights that should go along with them (assuming those rights would be the same as those of a married couple) should be acceptable, then?

I have so much to learn.

Are homosexuals seeking the right to marry, or the right to legally commit to their partner, and the benefits and legal rights of a legally bound couple (I *think* that's what I'm trying to say)?

I guess personally I don't see a difference. Marriage/civil union/domestic partnership are interchangeable terms to me.

Yes, that's what I am saying. I think that civil unions are completely acceptable. It seperates the secular from the sacred.

It is my understanding that the gay-marriage movement is not satisfied with civil unions. They want gay "marriage," thus pushing the re-definition of the sacred term.

I understand they are interchangeable to you, that's kind of how I see it too. BUT to many people they are not. . . .one is secular and the other is sacred.


ETA: The problem I have is that while I completely support gays' right to a state recognized union and the civil rights that come with that, I think the state should stay out of people's religion. Seperation of church and state works both ways. I am not opposed to a state recognized secular union. But when you are using something that has a sacred definition like "marriage" and the state is being asked to to redefine that, then you are imposing the state into religion.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Thanks hambirg.

welovecoupons (or anyone else), can you expand on this any?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the whole thing. Like I said, marriage/civil union/domestic partnership seem interchangeable to me.

Would prop 8 have failed if it were seeking rights for domestic partnership or civil union, or would the outcome have been the same?

I sensed animosity in your post when you referred to me as m'dear. (came across as snarky, angered with a sarcastic overtone)

I'm not laughing at you here so read this as me chuckling to myself and my upbringing.. My parents message of abstinence immediately came to mind.. OH YES THEY DID! Well, no they didn't scream but the message was Loud and Clear. No Sex Until Marriage. Maybe if I'd given them a ladder....

By the way,
I'm reaching for the rooftop for my kids too.
X

I am sooo sorry for taking this thread in a different direction.. I'll be quiet now.

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Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

My problem is when religious people push and legislate their morality on others. If everyone is created equal, then treat everyone equal by law. Marraige does not have to be defined. Who does it really hurt to have gay people married? I would like to have someone tell me in succinct terms how it hurts my marraige or what my marraige means to me.

From its conception our nation was founded on the idea that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator, with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

These rights were held in the first foundation document of our fledgling nation to be self evident. Sadly, however, we the people have too often trampled on this fundamental principle. Initially only white men were found to be created equal. It took courage and dedication to win those same rights, first for men of other races, and later for women. Indeed the struggle to ensure that those rights are protected from infringement is ongoing.

How can we uphold that singular and profound purpose when we begin to restrict the rights of a minority out of fear or religious conviction that they do not share? We should support the principles that have guided our nation since its inception by working to oppose the amendment on marriage. I understand that there are legal challenges to take this to the US supreme court. I hope that we all will use our hearts and heads to rid our country of discrimination of all kinds.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

DAMN! But you're good....able to read my mind through the internet.
Snarky, angered w/ a sarcastic overtone? PUHLEASE! I pretty much come out and say what I'm thinking. If I were angry--you'd know it! Just ask any number of posters here. I don't generally mince my words.

and yes, you are correct--URGES have been preached against, as in the example your provided of abstinence. I should have put sexual orientation. No one encourages heterosexuals to not act on their sexual orientation (in the appropriate place and time of course). Why should we expect different from people who happen to be attracted to the same sex.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

That's a good question, but I don't know.

I did look up Prop 8 though. This is out of the voter guide:

PROPOSITION 8

This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the provisions of Article II, Section 8, of the California Constitution. This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are printed in italic type to indicate that they are new.

SECTION 1. Title This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage Protection Act.”

SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution, to read:

SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

What happens to those who got married in the last few months? Does Ellens' marraige become illegal?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I'm not arguing that, BUT to you marriage is a secular term. To many people it is not. If they really wanted equal treatment under the law, then pass legislation where civil unions for everybody is the state norm. But to ask the state to re-define "marriage" that has a sacred definition, is imposing the state on religion. I'm pretty sure that is also what are founding fathers fought so hard to oppose.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

In a way, we all (both people with a religious background and others that don't consider themselves in that group) have issues that are "morality" based that we would vote accordingly to.

I'm going to pick another topic instead of the homosexual one.
How about Zoning/Building regulations in your town.
Would you vote to have the property next door to you changed from a house to a brothel? or a XXX Movie theatre? Why not?- It's residential? Why don't those shop owners get to build wherever they please? - It would be faster for customers to walk to them. They pay taxes on their business earnings, right? ---
Their pursuit of happiness is being squelched if you vote against them.

Take a moment and consider your objections to why this shouldn't be allowed.
What about a Bar serving alcohol to patrons next to an elementary school yard. There's a possiblity that "over the limit" patrons may drive through the cross walk mowing down children as they leave.

Every circumstance has a consquence, Every action a reaction.
Surely you have voted "your own personal brand of morality" upon others at one point or time.
Have you?

Even with religion set aside on those issues, I can still say morally,
I can, I have, I will, vote on a right wrong issue.
X

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Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28